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Featured Tullian Tchividjian Back in Active Ministry

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Reformed, Sep 1, 2015.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    There is no warrant to conflate what God has divided.

    God holds office bearers to a higher standard. If those standards are not maintained the person is not qualified to serve any longer and most likely was not qualified to begin with.

    The church who did not respect the discipline of the first church evidently lacks the marks of a true church one of which is proper discipline.
     
  2. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    So you have judged this Church is not a "true Church."

    You assume too much.


    God bless.
     
  3. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318 Well-Known Member
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    So the Bible is wrong for giving qualifications for what a Deacon, a Table Serve must be. Notice I didn't quote the passages about what an Elder, or Overseer must be but what a Deacon must be.

    Since when is a Director not in a leadership position?

    He has been trowing his wife under the bus all summer, just filed for divorce, while humblebragging on FB so tell me when has there been any time for restoration? He has yet to show any repentance publically, just keeps throwing his wife under the bus.

    After they repent. But I guess we should throw the Bible out since it does have qualifications for even those that want to serve tables in the Church and that is just not very loving to have standards for people in the church.

    .

    Ok if quoting all the passages that deal with Deacons is proof texting that's a new one. Lets see your passages that say its ok for a man who cheated on his wife, and then imedietly filed for divorce to take a "director" but not a leadership role in church.

    I feel like we have a tale of two ministers and their falls this summer. And one has only been mentioned favorably in all the circles I have seen because he admitted his mistake without any blame being thrown at another person has stepped down form leadership and has stayed quiet since the Scandal broke. Now since this man did not cheat on his wife, in a year when his discipline is over if he stepped back into a role I would have no problem with that because he has shown repentance. I'm still waiting for Tullian to show that he sorry for more then just getting caught and losing his book deals.
     
    #83 blessedwife318, Sep 11, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2015
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    As posted earlier.....the passage speaks.of the Divine instructions. ...MUST.... not should be, or try, it says MUST..... the same word used by Jesus.....you MUST be born from above...
    I MUST go to JERUSALEM...... I MUST ABIDE at your house ....
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Which again shows the irrelevance to what is being discussed.

    And again, the issue concerning tables was distinguishing between ministering the Word and general service.



    Since a clear statement pointing that out has already been published:



    You might give some thought to what this man says, it seems to express an attitude, that at the very least, falls within the authority of this particular organization.

    And I would point out that they were once members there.


    Again, you are out in left field: I have been saying, repeatedly...time will tell.

    You might consider your haste in judgment coupled with lack of compassion compounded by an opinionated bent for condemnation may not represent a Christian response to this situation.

    And since when do we base our judgment in the media...or Facebook, for Pete's sake...


    I have no concern about that, my only thought is what takes place in the future, and as I said before, it takes two to tango, and with Satan as the MC that spells disaster.

    You seem to think the wife is innocent in the breakdown of the marriage. Did you learn that on facebook as well?


    So who are you to judge whether this man has repented? You are a more authoritative voice than the leadership of the fellowship that has taken him in?


    Well, it seems you are content with throwing out part of it.

    Seek a balance and it might help.


    Are you aware that it is believed that these...


    Revelation 2:6

    King James Version (KJV)

    6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.



    ...were followers of this man...


    Acts 6:5

    King James Version (KJV)

    5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:



    ...if that is true, then we see a couple things we can take from this:

    1. There is sometimes people placed in roles erroneously.

    2. God makes it clear when that takes place.

    3. Men make mistakes on both sides of appointment.

    Which again makes your point moot.


    No, it's lacking all relevant Scripture that makes you to be in error. You are dealing with only those aspects of this that you want to, but the truth is that we should not draw conclusions and cast judgment apart from all that is relevant.

    In my view the statement seems to have the situation under control, and how it plays out we will have to wait and see.


    How about dealing with the passages and points already brought to the table. I have no desire to get into another pointless discussion with you.


    So in your mind this displays true repentance.

    Great.


    So if he had cheated on his wife then he too should be tossed to the lions.

    Your opinion is noted.


    He owes you nothing, so I wouldn't hold my breath on that. There's a good chance you would never be satisfied with anything he did.


    God bless.
     
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Let me repost what I said:



    Also, address this:



    Galatians 6:1

    King James Version (KJV)

    6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.


    10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.



    MUST we obey this as well?

    And that is all the time I have for now, so see you guys in the morning...God willing.


    God bless.
     
  7. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318 Well-Known Member
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    So you are willing to ignore passages that deal with what severs in the Church need to be, good to know.


    Oh I'm familiar with what he has said, as all his statements have been all over my FB feed. But I guess since its on FB it doesn't count in your opinion.


    Again what Time? It's been less then a month since he filed for divorce.
    And I'm fine with left field, being in the majority usually makes me feel like I'm wrong :)

    Since its his own words and his own postings. But I guess FB is a freezone since its not real right. So he can say whatever he wants there since its just FB for Pete's sake.

    OK no one is debating this issue obviously others were involved.


    Oh he has made sure that everyone knows about his wife's part in this breakup. But that is no excuse for HIS sin. HE cheated on his wife and it doesn't matter that she cheated first, HIS sin is HIS sin.


    I'm just quoting the Bible, because that has to be our standard.


    No you are the one that wants to ignore the standard for those serving in the church.




    Speculation does not negate the qualifications for Servers in the church.

    Again you are the one ignoring Scripture.

    Glad to see you are OK with casting judgement, since in your judgement its under control.

    I have, the Bible is clear on this issue, you just want to ignore those passages.
    Oh I'm sorry your still upset about our last conversation, I enjoyed it, but I'm sorry you didn't.


    No that's not true, but your judgement is noted. There is another former pastor who did cheat on his wife that also is stark contrast to Tullian. I have respect for how he has handled himself post affair.



    Again your judgement about me is noted :)
     
  8. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Two things about this post:
    1) by now you probably feel picked on, and that is not my intent in the slightest.
    2) the post is long, but the items do need addressed. Perhaps others could cull down the responses more effectively. That is my weakness.
    Where are the FRUITS of repentance brought when one flees the scene of the crime?

    It remains with his HOME church to which he must be responsible to demonstrate the fruits of repentance. That cannot be done from a different or remote geographical place, nor is it the right and responsibility of any member or staff of "his new church" to take on such responsibility.

    To focus solely upon a single person rather than taking into account that there are a vast number of lives impacted by what this man did and is doing is a part of the epic.

    This is a completely irrelevant and irresponsible question for you to ask. Is it not true that many who ask this type of question would have a history in their own life of moral failure?

    I recall that this type of question was asked in IFB circles when some staff member had moral failure and the folks were being persuaded to accept the situation, move on with their lives, ....

    Here you are WRONG!!!!!!

    Christ said, “Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering."

    One CANNOT expect the blessing and offerings to God be acceptable from a person who had denied Christ before the assembly by living a lie.

    He should FIRST go to the offended, deal with the situation, and because it is in the public eye, publicize the results.

    THEN and ONLY then he MIGHT present his "reasonable service" offering before God.


    Again, this is wrong thinking.

    The reality isn't "internal" it is both internal and external living resulting from internal wrong thinking. Lust planted the seed of sin that in the end brought death to his servitude of teaching and preaching.

    What I do or do not understand is not in your discernment.

    However, I do know the Lord Jesus Christ. And I can tell you than no "internal forgiveness" will take place without the offended parties becoming reconciled.

    If the man, the original assembly, the former wife, the children... are not brought fruits of repentance, there will be no forgiveness, either external or internal.



    Go back and re-read what was posted. There were qualifications stated



    Paul states:
    "But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God."
    It isn't a matter of us showing he is not a vial person. He has already shown that as fact.

    What is not evident is fruits of repentance that remove him from the judgment Scriptures place upon him.

    Because we stay with Scriptures and not with our feelings, it may seem harsh, but that is the only gauge give by God to us.

    A church does not welcome a "new staff member" that has no authority. "Let's keep the fact straight" so we might "better understand the situation."


    No PASTOR rules over the congregation.

    The pastor is to guide as a shepherd Christ's flock. They are NOT the pastor's sheep, nor does he have authority over the sheep. He is to "preach the word" and he may need to bring matters of discipline before the congregation. However, NOWHERE in Scriptures is the pastor even hinted at being the supreme rule over the building and grounds or the people.

    Because your view is that the senior pastor is to be obeyed as if they speak for God, it may skew your thinking.

    I will say this. A staff member who does not follow the Scriptures will not remain on staff. If a senior pastor finds a staff member not following Scriptures, that person is to be confronted by at least two others, and either changes in thinking and acting are made, or that man is dismissed by the actions of the assembly. This goes for "councils" also.

    The Scriptures are to be followed, not the person, and certainly not the councils.

    If my views are not Scriptural, then show me by Scriptures where they are wrong.

    If by Scriptures I am incorrect, I will most certainly recant.

    But there is NO track record for human kind of that ability. At best all schemes of human generated ability fail because they are built upon frailty.

    What this person is doing may seem right in some eyes (moving geographically, getting away from scorn and rebuke by others...), but it is not.

    There will be no true restoration with out the church that was offended and the hurt dealt to the original family(ies) being resolved - and that resolution publicized so that any future inquiry can be shown to be resolved by all effected.
     
  9. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Huh?

    R.C. Sproul Jr. remains an elder at 'Heritage Church':

    https://heritagecenterville.org/leadership

    You seem to be unaware of R.C. Jr.'s being defrocked in previous scandal, and popping up as an elder in another Reformed denomination after a few months?
     
  10. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318 Well-Known Member
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    I was unaware of that. I knew he had stepped down from Ligoners with the latest scandal. I didn't know that there was any previous scandals. That is sad.
     
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    :smilewinkgrin:
    DoG......:wavey:
     
  12. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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  13. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    How is pointing out that these passages deal with appointment to leadership ignoring those passages, whereas in view, what is relevant...is restoration of a fallen brother.

    Now here is your chance again:


    Galatians 6:1

    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.



    You are on the wrong side of the coin.


    I am not talking about Tullian, I am talking about the man quoted, who is in a place of leadership over Tullian, and expresses what I see a reserved yet loving attitude with a heart for restoration.

    Which is Biblical, contrasted with the Pharisaical condemnation I am seeing in some of these posts.

    Again, a situation like this should create a certain fear in all of us, and we should seek to show mercy in light of the fact that none of us are impervious to sin creeping in, and falling as this man has.



    Sheesh...

    That's the point. It is too soon to tell.

    Give it time.

    This simply reiterates your basic "I don't know what to believe" mentality expressed in other conversations.

    You can know, and should know, and it is just a matter of study.


    Oh, so we base out judgment on facebook because someone happens to say something on it.

    Wonderful.

    Have you considered the turmoil this fellow must be going through. People can react emotionally and say things in times like that. When in a situation such as a divorce and public shame, most people will go on the defensive which in turns is offensive. Not everything said in heated discussion should be considered heartfelt.

    And it is just my opinion that if people spent the time they do on facebook in the Word of God...it would be a better world.


    You are debating it.

    You completely ignore the Scripture I have presented as a balance to a judgmental attitude.

    You ignore the wife's transgression.

    You ignore the impact of the media circus.

    You ignore the statement of the leadership that has taken him in.

    You ignore your responsibility to forgive as you have been forgiven.

    You ignore the warning of Scripture that demands mercy, and promises mercy in like fashion.

    And it goes back to the fact that Satan is in the business of seeking to destroy the Body of Christ, and he does so with affairs like these (again, no pun intended).

    The points I am trying to make are that it is too soon to judge how this will turn out. We need to wait to see if repentance is forthcoming, and repentance may be a long time coming. Sure, he can regret his sin and the consequences of his actions, but time will tell if this is a godly sorrow or the sorrow of the world. Secondly, all of us must keep in mind that all of us are at risk, and our prayer should be...deliver us from evil.

    Not...let's toss him to the lions.

    "Forgive us our trespasses...even as we forgive those who trespass against us."

    That is just basic.

    Yet you want to proof-text your judgment with a passage dealing with appointing men to leadership. That's over for this fellow, at least for right now. That is not even relevant. Now move on to what Scripture has to say about after the fact.


    So why would we think your focus is only on him?

    My guess...facebook hysteria, lol.

    I mean, listen to yourself:

    Are you serious?

    Since when...does adultery not matter? It's okay for women to cheat on their husbands? There is no possibility this man's sin is a direct result of that betrayal?

    Simply incredible.


    Answer the question:

    You are wiser than this man who is actually in the place of authority over this fellow? You could do a better job managing Church affairs than this man?


    Continued...
     
  14. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    On the contrary, I have pointed out the standard, which is that all men and women are capable of falling into sin, and if that happens we are commanded to restore such an one, if it be that we are spiritual.

    And if we ignore, and refute that command...what does that say?


    I would agree with that, however, having already pointed out Peter's hypocrisy (and you remember he was appointed by Christ, right?), I might also point out that perhaps you should take a step back into speculation.

    That would be a far sight better than hasty judgment.

    Again, it is too soon to judge this man, time will tell. Have you prayed for him? Prayed for the ministry that has taken upon themselves the burden of seeking to restore this man?


    If you say so.


    Could you tell me why you would (1) think God is not in control of the situation, and (2) why you feel the leadership in authority is not in control?

    I see nothing in the statement that I could question, and in fact see several solid points that are Biblically based.

    So yes, I have judged that the situation is under control. Feel free to show how it is not.

    And the difference is that I am not judging the man, but the events.


    Not even close.


    That goes without saying.

    The problem is you are confusing instruction for appointment with a situation that is not about appointment, and you have already been corrected about your confusion of this man being given a position of authority.



    No, just keep them in their proper context.


    Didn't say I didn't enjoy it, just that it was pointless, apparently. I usually enjoy most conversations I have with people, whether they are friendly or antagonistic.


    It is true...that's exactly what you are doing, and compounding that is an attitude that categorizes sin:


    That's not a judgment about you, lol, it's simply the truth.

    This is sin that is primarily between this man and the Lord, even as David's sin was. His leadership position might be compared to David's, but the principle deals with the personal relationship, or lack thereof, between God and man.

    From the temporal perspective we also recognize the relationship between the wife, then thirdly the relationship with the congregation.

    In this affair (no pun intended) there was a breakdown in the priority of relationship that should be in place, beginning with the breakdown of relationship between this man and woman with God, then with each other, which then spilled over to children (if any) and the congregation.

    When that relational priority breaks down, we, of all people, should not be surprised at the consequences. When vigilance fails, no matter who the person is, things like this can happen...

    ...to all of us.


    God bless.
     
  15. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Picked on? lol

    Not sure why you would think that. It's just debate, my friend.


    That is true, so let's begin.

    ;)


    My advice to you would be to put in the effort to properly address each post, and I commend you for your efforts here. Keep up the good work.


    Not sure why you would cloud a very simple issue. Address what I said, and deny it as a valid statement...or agree.

    The two go hand in hand.


    A couple of things:

    1. There is one Body of Christ. Each group is not a separate entity.

    2. His Home Church has, as I said...followed proper Biblical procedure.

    3. His new church has followed proper Biblical procedure.

    4. It is too soon to judge whether repentance has taken place in his heart.

    5. If he has not repented in truth...he is in the best place for that to occur.

    But all of this has been stated repeatedly. Your demand that he make reparation to his home Church is first premature, secondly, lacking any understanding of man's propensity for sin and how the consequences make things difficult, and third...presuming to be wiser judgment than that of the church he has now joined.

    I will ask you the same question asked of another member: do you think you are better able to deal with the situation than the leadership of his current church.

    I see wisdom in the statement provided by them, but only judgment without mercy, not to mention lacking all relevant details, both those that have occurred...and what may take place in the future.

    So tell me, you know better than they?

    And will you tell me what you do with this...


    Galatians 6:1

    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.



    ...?


    Or this...


    10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.


    ...?

    Or would you like to, at this time, render ultimate judgment and deny this man is saved?

    What say you?


    Tell that to Paul when he mediated the reconciliation between Philemon and Onesimus.

    Then address Peter's sin...after he was saved.

    Then address the command of God to have judgment with mercy.

    Then address the warning of mercy given as mercy is shown, forgiveness given as forgiveness is shown.

    Then perhaps you can make a case for your demand this man make reparation to his home church.

    The leadership of that church has done what is supposed to do, and I would think that most of us could understand the difficulty, at this early stage, of this man attending his home church.

    But, as with the case of Onesimus, restoration is possible, and just as Paul mediated (or to our knowledge attempted to) Onesimus' restoration, there is a Biblical pattern in the actions of this fellow's current congregation.


    Continued...
     
  16. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    You are not accurately portraying my position. There is no way you can say my position "focus(es) solely upon a single person."

    And there is no way you can say I have overlooked the consequences and impact of his sin on his home church.

    So again...let's keep the facts straight.

    My focus is on, primarily...our reaction as the Body to sin in the Church.


    Answer the question.

    It is relevant because you are demanding something of someone else that both of us know...you will never do, in all likelihood.

    You are demanding public contrition and say...



    ...so again, when is the last time you openly confessed your sin to your congregation?

    And if one demands of someone else something they have no intention of doing...what does that make one?


    My answer would be...of course!

    And that is the point.

    It's easy to sit around and render judgment when it's someone else, but when it's us, or a loved one, well, that another story, isn't it?

    I can say in all honesty that my walk with the Lord has had it's share of "moral failures," and while I may have never gone out and slept with another woman...I count any sin committed in my walk with Christ to be failure, shame and reproach upon the name of Christ.

    But do I get up and confess them publicly before my congregation? No.

    Nor, I suspect, do you. So unless you are sinless and would like to set the record straight on that point at this time, then I suggest you consider your own self as Paul mentions here:


    Galatians 6:1

    King James Version (KJV)

    1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.



    And to my knowledge not one person has commented on this verse and how it applies to this situation, and specifically to us, the Body of Christ, in dealing with such a situation.


    Continued...
     
  17. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Relevance?

    If you want to discuss that start a thread. Try to focus on the discussion at hand.


    Multiple exclamation points do not the truth make.

    Now see, you made me get all Yoda on you. lol

    Not sure what to say about believing temporal relationships take precedence over our relationship with God.

    Let's take a look at your proof-texting:


    First, this in a context of the Covenant of Law, and while it certainly has application to us as Christians, it does not negate certain basic truths that must be considered before proof-texting a temporal priority in relationships:


    Matthew 22:36-40

    King James Version (KJV)

    36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

    37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

    38 This is the first and great commandment.

    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.



    If the Church would get their relational priorities in order, we might see less of these situations than we currently do.

    Secondly, when we move into a context which is more relevant, a New Covenant context, which does not have the offerings of the Law, we do not neglect those teachings that deal with restoration, mercy, and forgiveness.

    Third, this man's offense is not one that is going to heal overnight. You say you consider those in his home church that have been offended, I would suggest to you that for many of them forgiveness is something they are going to have to reconcile for themselves. Right now I am sure many feel betrayed and are hurt, but that they too must learn to forgive and come to an understanding of this man's fall is a certain as well. So you are demanding something that right now is not likely to happen, and without giving it time I would have to say that is simply unreasonable, and in my opinion reflects more of a Pharisaical attitude than a Christian attitude.


    On the contrary...one can:


    1 John 1:9

    King James Version (KJV)

    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.



    That the man has not repented to your liking means nothing, this is between he and God foremost, as I said.

    And if the leadership of his current church feels he shows sufficient remorse, and is willing to take him in, then for me I will mind my own business and wait to see what comes of it.

    Rather than stacking the wood, collecting the oil, and preparing the match.


    Who do you think you are to make any demand of what this man does?

    You let God deal with him. You should first consider your own position in light the warnings of Scripture.


    Well, you go on with your First Covenant offerings and let me know when you have a valid complaint about how the leadership of both of these churches can be called into question. As of now you simply sound like a Pharisee ready to put someone to death.


    Continued...
     
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    No, it is "thinking" that takes into account that we are still in unredeemed flesh, that all of us have the potential to fall, and God forbid, if we do...we are treated in the manner as some of you have presented.

    It's okay for God to forgive you, but let someone else sin and you're ready to drop the hammer.

    You tell me you know without doubt that should you fall into sin as this man has...you would follow your own course of action.


    For this to actually make sense you would need to remove "internal" from your statement.

    As I said...

    The internal must precede the external. That is a simple truth you are not going to change.


    I think we might speculate on a few other issues relevant to his fall, namely Satan, and the infidelity of his wife.

    Perhaps you are one of those that think that leaders are Super-Christians? That somehow they are impervious to the frailties of humanity? The deceptive nature of sin?

    No-one has argued that lust wasn't a factor, but what is argued is that there is more to this than can be covered by blanket condemnation and writing this man out of the Body.


    Sure it is, as well as seen in the public display you present.

    I have asked you to consider other aspects that I see as relevant and to a word you reject everything. You present yourself as a sinless and flawless believer well able to better judge the matter than men who are actually in authority and personally involved in the situation. You condemn, not only this man...but the fellowship he now attends.

    Who are you to condemn those that belong to Christ?

    Or, in your mighty wisdom...would you deny them as belonging to God as well?



    And you have your priorities askew.

    Learn a lesson from David...


    Psalm 51:3-4

    King James Version (KJV)

    3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

    4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.



    If this man's repentance is not internal and first and foremost before and to God...no amount of the external will make any difference.


    Continued...
     
  19. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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  20. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    This expresses an unbiblical approach, where restitution to men precedes repentance before God.

    Where is your demand for his wife, I wonder? Why no mention of her?


    A hollow statement. Everything has been addressed point for point in detail.

    Nevertheless...





    ...could you point out the qualifications that make my question irrelevant?


    And that is what you present...this man must make amends to you.

    He owes you nothing.


    You mean the judgment you have placed upon him, which is contrary to the judgment of his current leadership.

    Time will tell how this plays out.

    Your concern might be for the judgment you bring upon yourself for ignoring a basic tenet of restoration as well as man's propensity for sin, even after being saved.


    1 Peter 5:7-9

    King James Version (KJV)

    7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

    8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:



    You seem to think the Lord does not care for this fellow. That God cannot cleanse one who has fallen so. That he must repent to your satisfaction. That he is the only guilty party involved.

    Tell me...have you been flawlessly vigilant, my friend?


    The Pharisees "stayed with Scripture."

    We should learn a lesson from their proof-texting manner.


    Apparently you do not understand the difference between general service and ministries where men have positions of authority.

    In fact...you deny this simple truth.


    That would be a refreshing change, lol.


    Continued...
     
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