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Featured The fig tree represents Israel? That [Edit: may, in my opinion, be] Gnosticism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Hermeneut7, Aug 12, 2017.

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  1. Hermeneut7

    Hermeneut7 Member
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    The "fig tree" in Matt.24:32 is claimed dogmatically to be Israel. That idea is found nowhere in the entire Holy Bible or Apocrypha. Yet, it is a teaching found in Gnosticism. I quote from the Apocalypse of Peter, found in the Gnostic Society Library online:

    "And ye, take ye the likeness thereof (learn a parable) from the fig-tree: so soon as the shoot thereof is come forth and the twigs grown, the end of the world shall come.

    And I, Peter, answered and said unto him: Interpret unto me concerning the fig-tree, whereby we shall perceive it; for throughout all its days doth the fig-tree send forth shoots, and every year it bringeth forth its fruit for its master. What then meaneth the parable of the fig-tree? We know it not.

    And the Master (Lord) answered and said unto me: Understandest thou not that the fig-tree is the house of Israel?"

    The Apocalypse of Peter -- Gnostic Society Library: Christian Apocrypha and Early Christian Literature
    This is quoted by a prophecy preacher thus:

    "This remarkable manuscript documents the understanding of the early post-apostolic Church that Jesus's famous prophetic parable about the budding of the fig tree was understood by the Jewish Christians to be a clear prophecy of the rebirth of the nation Israel in the last days prior to Christ's return."
    Grant R. Jeffrey Ministries

    This person states the work as "non-canonical", but nowhere alerts that it is Gnosticism. Is this not enough to make Dispensationalists question such crazy teachings? Were the Gnostics Christians? See the ISBE:

    Gnosticism in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.

    This is enough for me to consider Dispensationalism [Edited: incorrect].
     
    #1 Hermeneut7, Aug 12, 2017
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  2. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    "And all the trees." Are they all supposed to represent Israel?
     
    #2 David Kent, Aug 12, 2017
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Well, though I agree with you on Mt 24:32, and that Dispensationalism is [Edited: incorrect], what about this fig tree?:

    19 And seeing a fig tree by the way side, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only; and he saith unto it, Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever. And immediately the fig tree withered away. Mt 21

    Jibes with:

    21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.
    22 And the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more at all in thee; and the voice of a mill shall be heard no more at all in thee;
    23 and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived.
    24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18
     
    #3 kyredneck, Aug 12, 2017
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  4. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    #4 David Kent, Aug 12, 2017
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Hey, you forgot to say anything in post #4. Don't keep me in suspense!
     
    #5 kyredneck, Aug 12, 2017
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  6. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    You certainly come to a charge of [Edited] quickly.
    I think you've made that charge a number of times already in various threads you've started - lighten up!

    Dispensationalists differ widely among themselves.
    A single quote doesn't define the system.
    I'd suggest you understand the system of theology better before you make a charge of [Edited].

    Your opening post is enough for me to consider you a [Edited: uninformed] poster!

    Rob
     
    #6 Deacon, Aug 12, 2017
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  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Jesus oft spoke in parables and left it up to the hearer to interpret what he said.

    Matthew 13 is such a chapter in which much is left up to the reader to solve.

    e.g. what does the mustard tree represent in Matthew 13.
    What of the birds which make a home in the tree?
    OH-OH be careful to interpret correctly or you may be a heretic (using your judgement) :)

    Just because someone gives a view of the metaphors and symbols of unexplained parables of which you do not agree does not necessarily make them a heretic.

    To be fair to those of us you have by innuendo proclaimed to be heretics - What does the fig tree represent?

    Thanks H7.

    HankD
     
    #7 HankD, Aug 12, 2017
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  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Or he could be like a lot of others who have left Dispensationalism and have SLOWLY come to that realization.
     
    #8 kyredneck, Aug 12, 2017
  9. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    Not sure what happened here, sorry.
     
    #9 David Kent, Aug 12, 2017
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Not a tree! It's the smallest of 'herbs' which grew into something it wasn't supposed to be, a tree that gave birds (i.e., the devil in the previous parable) a lodging place. Like the wheat field, the tares appeared but were not planted by the sower, the devil planted them. Most(?) of the parables in Mt 13 are in the negative.
     
    #10 kyredneck, Aug 12, 2017
  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    OHOH, don't worry K, I won't use the "H" word. :)

    HankD
     
    #11 HankD, Aug 12, 2017
  12. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    I'm not sure why this last line of mine was edited - I believe it was acceptable ...

    ... but the edit was more in line with the intent of my post.​

    Rob
     
    #12 Deacon, Aug 12, 2017
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  13. Hermeneut7

    Hermeneut7 Member
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    "Dispensationalism is a method of Bible interpretation which was first devised by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), and later formulated by the controversial American Cyrus Ingerson Scofield [sometimes referred to as CyrusIngersoll Scofield] (1843-1921), and is also known as Pre-millennial Dispensationalism. Although Darby was not the first person to suggest such a theory, he was, however, the first to develop it as a system of Bible interpretation and is, therefore, regarded as the Father of Dispensationalism.

    The origin of this theory can be traced to three Jesuit priests; (1) Francisco Ribera (1537-1591), (2) Cardinal Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621) one of the best known Jesuit apologists, who promoted similar theories to Ribera in his published work between 1581 and 1593 entitled Polemic Lectures Concerning the Disputed Points of the Christian Belief Against the Heretics of This Time, and (3) Manuel Lacunza (1731–1801). The writings of Ribera and Bellarmine, which contain the precedence upon which the theory of Dispensationalism is founded, were originally written to counteract the Protestant reformers’ interpretation of the Book of the Revelation which, according to the reformers, exposed the Pope as Antichrist and the Roman Catholic Church as the whore of Babylon."
    The History of Dispensationalism

    The above is just two paragraphs of a much longer record of the origins of dispensationalism. This is well worth the read and some of it can be seen in this Roman Catholic commentary, here is the 2 Thessalonians chapter 2
    2 Thessalonians 2 Commentary - George Leo Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary
     
    #13 Hermeneut7, Aug 12, 2017
  14. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    These and other historic facts have been researched extensively by many here at the BB.
    Years ago, so you probably wouldn't remember them having only been here since 2014.

    Many dispensationalists no longer accept the label because of the quilt of many colors of those who have tried to define it.

    Still, you have not offered an explanation of the metaphor of the fig tree of which Jesus cursed.
    Please H7 be true to your avatar and offer an exposition of the hermeneutics of His fig tree parable to enlighten us who are heretics of the error of our ways.

    Thanks

    HankD
     
    #14 HankD, Aug 12, 2017
  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Where do you place the most faith, in the word of God or in the words of men?

    It seems to me would should take the words of men with a grain of salt. They are fallible, sometimes terribly biased, and often the prisoners of their own opinions.
     
    #15 TCassidy, Aug 12, 2017
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  16. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Do you believe in the Trinitarian doctrine propounded by Athanasius? Where is the passage?

    HankD
     
    #16 HankD, Aug 12, 2017
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The question was directed to H7. You posted just before I did. :)
     
    #17 TCassidy, Aug 12, 2017
  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    My bad :)

    Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

    HankD
     
    #18 HankD, Aug 12, 2017
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  19. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member
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    As I said Irving claimed to be he first to preach dispensationalism. Certainly by 1833 at the latest they were teaching "rapture" See Robert Baxter Irvingism in its rise and Present State, 1836, How did it get to Darby? The Irvingites held prophetic conferences at Albury in London from the late 1920s to early 1930s. Lady Powerscourt attended some of these and held similar conferences at her estate in Ireland. Both Irving and Darby attended these meetings.
     
    #19 David Kent, Aug 12, 2017
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The catching away of believers before the time of great tribulation was taught by Ephraim the Syrian who said in his book, Antichrist and the End of the World published in 376. He wrote, "Because all Saints and the elect of the Lord are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord in order that they may not see at anytime the confusion that overwhelms the world because of our sins."

    Also note the words of Joseph Mede, "I will add this more, namely, what may be conceived to be the cause of this RAPTURE of the saints on high to meet the Lord in the clouds, rather than to wait his coming to earth....What if it be, that they may be PRESERVED during the Conflagration of the earth and the works thereof, 2 Pet.3:10, that as Noah and his family were preserved from the Deluge by being lift up above the waters in the Ark; so should the saints at the Conflagration be lift up in the clouds unto their Ark, Christ, to be preserved there from the deluge of fire, wherein the wicked shall be consumed?" ("The Works of Joseph Mede," 1672, London edition, Book IV, p.776)
     
    #20 TCassidy, Aug 12, 2017
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