1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

To Be or Not To Be: That is the question of James 2:5

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Reformed1689, Dec 26, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 6 of 8
  1. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    9,903
    Likes Received:
    1,820
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is outright false. Post #97 was NOT taint so. In fact, it was pressing you to respond to an earlier post without a strawman argument.
     
    #101 Reformed1689, Jan 21, 2020
  2. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    9,903
    Likes Received:
    1,820
    Faith:
    Baptist
    For the record, this post of @Van is actually a "taint so" post, like most of his posts.
     
    #102 Reformed1689, Jan 21, 2020
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,989
    Likes Received:
    1,021
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The ESV alters the text of James 2:5 to make it better fit with Calvinist doctrine. Those chosen as poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God were conditionally elected. However if you insert "to be" you change the message such that they were not rich in faith when chosen and were not those that loved God. Just one of many examples of Calvinist bias on display in the ESV

    How does James 2:5 read in YLT? Weymouth New Testament? Websters Bible Translation? Darby Bible Translation? Douay - Rheims Bible? American King James Version? KJ2000 Bible? Aramaic Bible in Plain English? Contemporary English Version? None of these versions inserted "to be" into the text in order to alter the truth.
     
    #103 Van, Jan 21, 2020
  4. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    9,903
    Likes Received:
    1,820
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Already proven this to be false. It is perfectly within the semantic domain.

    This contradicts the rest of Scripture.

    That's what the Greek says too Van. Says we were chosen before we had faith. Before the foundation of the world. PREDESTINED. Not based on anything we said or did.

    So you pick (outside of the KJV) either obscure translations, Catholic translations, or very liberal translations to prop up your point? That's pretty pathetic.
     
    #104 Reformed1689, Jan 21, 2020
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,989
    Likes Received:
    1,021
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet another avoidance of James 2:5, another denial of the obvious.
     
    #105 Van, Jan 21, 2020
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,989
    Likes Received:
    1,021
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Adding "to be" to James 2:5 alters the text, that is why about 10 versions did not include that corruption. And a few more added the corruption but put it in "italics" so the reader would know it was not part of the inspired text.

    The ESV alters the text of James 2:5 to make it better fit with Calvinist doctrine. Those chosen as poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God were conditionally elected. However if you insert "to be" you change the message such that they were not rich in faith when chosen and were not those that loved God. Just one of many examples of Calvinist bias on display in the ESV

    How does James 2:5 read in YLT? Weymouth New Testament? Websters Bible Translation? Darby Bible Translation? Douay - Rheims Bible? American King James Version? KJ2000 Bible? Aramaic Bible in Plain English? Contemporary English Version? None of these versions inserted "to be" into the text in order to alter the actual inspired text.
     
    #106 Van, Jan 21, 2020
  7. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    9,903
    Likes Received:
    1,820
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is just an ignorant statement. How come as many, and more, put it in there? Why did you have to find obscure translations, Catholic translations, and liberal translations (aside from the KJV) to support your view?

    No, it actually doesn't.
    Again, we are not rich in faith prior to conversion. And, you are effectively preaching a works-based salvation if election is dependent upon something we must do. That is a work. Eph. 2:8-9 refutes this as does Titus 3:5.

    Who cares how it reads in those? How does it read in the original language? What is the semantic range of the words Van?
     
    #107 Reformed1689, Jan 22, 2020
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,989
    Likes Received:
    1,021
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Is "to be" found in the actual text? Nope
    Is "to be" somehow necessitated by the Greek grammar? Nope
    Is "to be" necessary to understand the scripture? Nope
    Does "to be" alter and corrupt the message? Yep

    About 10 versions do not insert the corruption into the text, many of them respected translations in the KJV family and in conservative translations such as Young's Literal Translation.
     
    #108 Van, Jan 22, 2020
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You keep labeling our theology as being "Bogus", yet fail you ever interact on the scriptures, as you just keep sticking to your own misunderstandings about them!
     
    #109 Yeshua1, Jan 22, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,989
    Likes Received:
    1,021
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The views of false doctrine must be exposed, such as claiming James 2:5 does not teach conditional election based on being rich in faith and loving God.
     
    #110 Van, Jan 23, 2020
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    election in the Bible refers to the unconditional choosing of us by the will of God!
     
    #111 Yeshua1, Jan 23, 2020
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,989
    Likes Received:
    1,021
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, James 2:5 teaches God's individual election picks people "rich in faith" and those "that love God."
     
    #112 Van, Jan 23, 2020
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Context is not your friend!
     
    #113 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,989
    Likes Received:
    1,021
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet another deflection. Anyone can claim unreferenced "context" supports a bogus view.
    OTOH, adding "to be" is not in the inspired text of James 2:5, its addition alters the message, and is an agenda driven alteration to support bogus doctrine.
     
    #114 Van, Jan 24, 2020
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The big problem is that you fail to see the plain meaning of paul as relating to natural men and salvation!
     
    #115 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,989
    Likes Received:
    1,021
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Adding "to be" which is not in the inspired text of James 2:5, alters the message, and is an agenda driven alteration to support bogus doctrine.
     
    #116 Van, Jan 24, 2020
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It is within the acceptable way to translate that passage into English!
     
    #117 Yeshua1, Jan 24, 2020
    • Winner Winner x 1
  18. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    9,903
    Likes Received:
    1,820
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Which totally contradicts Romans 3.
     
    #118 Reformed1689, Jan 24, 2020
  19. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    9,903
    Likes Received:
    1,820
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You add the word "yet"
     
    #119 Reformed1689, Jan 24, 2020
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,989
    Likes Received:
    1,021
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, an acceptable way was chosen by about 10 translations, and several others put the corruption in italics. For Calvinists to push for the corruption of the text to mesh with their bogus doctrine is disheartening.
     
    #120 Van, Jan 24, 2020
Page 6 of 8
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...