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Featured Did Christ die two deaths?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Piper, Sep 8, 2022.

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  1. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    This thread is a perfect example of why this forum can become so annoying. People on here make up their own theology. Use terms in ways theologians will not use them. They then act like I am crazy for using a term in the way that almost any seminary level systematic Theology text defines it. Typical B.B.
     
  2. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Maybe you would be less annoyed if you would get your theology from the Bible instead of from theologians' interpretations of the Bible.
     
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  3. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    This makes no sense. According to you Jesus, having died spiritually and physical, still retains deity. How? And how can He take up His life when He basically had nothing from which to work?

    Physical death is when you have no spirit within you. Not possible with God, for humans it happens to those who have lost their opportunity for God's gracious influence. Several terms are used for these unfortunates in Scripture, "twice dead", apostate, etc.
     
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  4. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    Show me one verse that calls it Spiritual Death. I mean, what Jesus experienced, specifically.
     
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  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You are not hearing or understanding. That word translated "life" for ransom is the word for soul. Mark 10:45. So when do you think sins were paid? Before or after "Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished?".
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That term is an extra Biblical term.
     
  7. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    "Spiritual Death" is a theological term, not directly found in Scripture, that is used to explain a theological concept. It would help if you knew the terms definition. You accused me of having a strange, minority view of it's definition. I demonstrated to you that I am using the proper definition and accepted definition. You have yet to provide am alternate definition from a theological text. The Bible does not define the term because the term does not appear in The Bible, unless some paraphrase " translation" has it somewhere.
    You misuse a term and then accuse me of ignorance. Typical B.B. crap, as of late.
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Not sure where "to give his /soul/ a ransom for many" came from. The NASB reads: By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

    Ditto for Mark 10:45, which reads Mar 10:45
    “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”

    Thus there is no actual support for Christ having a human spirit/soul, but rather that He gave up physical life on the cross as the sacrifice (the shedding of blood) as a ransom for all.


     
    #48 Van, Sep 10, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2022
  9. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    You are getting peeved for no reason. We disagree, so what?

    I never accused you of having a "minority view". Nor of being "ignorant".

    There can be no "proper definition" for an improper concept - spiritual death, as in spiritual death of Christ. This is like asking for a theological definition for, say, "apostolic succession". I am sure some theologian somewhere has defined that nicely too.

    I get it. For you theological authorities figure higher than what the Bible actually says. FWIW I do have a BA in Bible, I am published, studied Greek for many years. But - for the purpose of this thread - what any one says about spiritual death is unimportant to what we find from the Bible.

    And that is what you do not respond to.
     
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  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    @Van
    Because of the common false teaching of the immortality of the soul, it is the underlying reason the word soul is translated as "life" when it's death is referred to.
    Re: Hebrews 10:10 is about being a once for all offering of His boby.
     
  11. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die

    Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Gen 2:17 YLT and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

    Question

    Soul - Does, dying dost die, equal, shall die, of the soul?

    Acts 2:31 YLT having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

    Question at what precise moment do you think the soul of Christ was considered to be, to hades?

    I believe from the word of God the moment the spirit of Christ departed Christ to the hands of the Father the soul of Christ was to hades, the realm of the dead, and our sins were redeemed.

    The correct translation of Lev 17:11

    Darby

    for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul.

    IMHO What makes soul, living, in the blood is Spirit from God. That which Christ committed into the hands of the Father.
     
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Let us look at what Jesus explained.
    Matthew 10:28, ". . . And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: . . ." When the body dies it does not mean the soul died. [Hades]
    Matthew 10:28, ". . . but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. . . ." Meaning that both the body and soul dies in hell, meaning the lake of fire.
     
  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Are you teaching annihilationism?
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No. You do not read or listen.
     
  15. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    1 Cor 15:26 ἔσχατος ἐχθρὸς καταργεῖται θάνατος·
    Rev 20:14 καὶ θάνατος καὶ ὁ ᾅδης ἐβλήθησαν εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρός οὗτος ἐστιν ὁ δεύτερός θάνατος Rev
    Rev 21:4 καὶ ἐξαλείψει ὁ Θεὸς πᾶν δάκρυον ἀπὸ τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν αὐτῶν καὶ ὁ θάνατος οὐκ ἔσται ἔτι οὔτε πένθος οὔτε κραυγὴ οὔτε πόνος οὐκ ἔσται ἔτι ὅτι τὰ πρῶτα ἀπῆλθον


    Is that the one or two of which Christ died? When?
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Christ was buried because of both deaths, Isaiah 53:9, ". . . with the rich in his *death; . . ." *Hebrew deaths.

    His soul, Mark 15:34, before John 19:28. His body, Luke 23:46.
     
  17. 5 point Gillinist

    5 point Gillinist Active Member

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    It sounds like Reynolds believes/agrees with us on the matter, it boils down to a difference in the definition of the term "spiritual death."
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Christ offered His body, which refers to offering His physical life. The human soul is not immortal as God can destroy both the body and the soul. The reason the Greek word is translated "life" is the word has the meaning of the "breath of life" so if breathing life, and not breathing death.
     
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  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    We agree His soul was not immortal when He offered His soul in His then mortal body. Isaiah 53:12, ". . . he hath poured out his soul unto death: . . ." Now I am persuaded that was accomplished when He was forsaken on the cross, Mark 15:34 and was already completed per John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." This was before His physical death, John 19:30.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    We agree that the human soul is not immortal, but we disagree that Christ's soul was not immortal. The Spirit/Soul of Christ was the Second Person of the Trinity and thus eternal.
     
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