Yet Another HCSB Thread !

Well actually this deals with the TNIV as well . Some believe that the TNIV is kind of dynamic . I say it is essentially literal most of the time . Therefore I do not believe it is too far removed from the HCSB or the ESV . As I have said many times -- the TNIV is my favorite , the HCSB is my #2 choice . ( When the ISV comes out with both Testaments in hardback I may alter my personal rankings . )

I really do like the HCSB . I do . But in the following you will see that a number of times the TNIV reading is more literal . Now literal doesn't always equate with being the best or most accurate . So I will just note the literal at times ( as per the NET Bible ). It does not mean that it is my personal choice necessarly . Sometimes I'll just supply the respective readings and neither rendering will be literal . Once in awhile I'll note the NLT2 .

The examples will be from the book of Isaiah . The HCSB will be at the top , and the TNIV will be below .

8:12 Alliance
Conspiracy ( same in the NLT and NET text )

8:20 To the law and to the testimony !
Consult God's instruction and the testimony of warning .

11:4 discipline
the rod ( lit.)

11:4 command
the breath ( lit.)

11:15 the gulf of Suez
the Egyptian sea ( same as NET text . The literal is The Sea of Egypt ).

16:5 the HCSB adds " will sit on His throne forever " .

16:10 grapes
wine (lit.)

19:3 Egypt's spirit will be disturbed within it
The Egyptians will lose heart ( same as NLT2)

21:4 my last glimmer of hope
the twilight I longed for ( NET text : The Twilight I desired .)
Lit. my twilight

22:1 An oracle against
A prophecy concerning

25:3 people
nations ( lit.)

26:11 Your hand is lifted up [ to take action ]
your hand is lifted high
NETnote in Heb. : O Lord , your hand is lifted up .

27:10 pastures abandoned
an abandoned settlement ( NET text : deserted settled )

28:15 We have cut a deal with death
We have entered into a covenant with death
NET text : we have made a treaty with death

28:16 unshakable
never to be stricken with panic
Heb. will not hurry . i.e. act in panic

28:19 Only terror will cause you to understand the message .
The understanding of this message will bring sheer terror .

28:21 His disturbing task
His alien task ( NET text : his strange task )

29:13 honor Me with lip service
honor me with their lips ( lit.)

 

Continuing ...

From the book of Isaiah . HCSB at the top and TNIV below .

30:20 Your teacher
your teachers ( NET text )

31:3 raises His hand [to strike ]
stretches out his hand

31:4 subdued by their noise
disturbed by their clamor ( NET text : intimidated by their yelling )

31:9 His rock will pass away
Their stronghold will fall ( NET text : They will surrender their stronghold )

40:26 Look up and see
Lift up your eyes and look to the heavens
Heb. lift on high your eyes and see

41:1 for the trial
at the place of judgment

41:2 the Lord
He (lit.)

42:6 called you for a righteous [purpose]
called you in righteousness ( lit. call you in righteousness )

42:25 paid no attention
did not take it to heart ( lit. did not put on heart )

44:18 Such people
They ( lit.)

48:4 your neck is iron
the sinews of your neck were iron ( lit. is an iron sinew )

 

Continuing In Isaiah

HCSB at the top and TNIV below .

53:3 He was like one people turned away
Like one from whom people hide their faces
Lit. And like a hiding of faces from Him

53:8 who considered His fate ?
who of his generation protested ?
The point -- few cared about His harsh treatment

54:7 refute any accusation
refute every tongue

55:11 prosper in what I send it [to do]
achieve the purpose for which I sent it

55:12 be peacefully guided
be led forth in peace

55:13 it will make a name for the Lord
This will be for the Lord's renown
NETnote :in the sense of a monument

56:6 who convert to the Lord
who bind themselves to the Lord
Heb. who attach themselves to

57:16 the spirit would grow weak before me
they would faint away because of me
Heb. for a spirit from before me would be faint

58:13 keep me from desecrating
keep your feet from (lit.)

60:13 glorify My dwelling place
glorify the place for my feet (lit.)

61:1 heal
bind up (lit.)

61:7 they will possess double in their land
you will inherit a double portion

63:5 My wrath assisted Me
My own wrath sustained me
Heb. and my anger , it supported Me

65:6 I will repay them fully
I will pay back into their laps
Lit. repay into their lap

65:7 I will reward them fully
I will measure into their laps the full payment
Lit. pay back into their lap

65:8 there's some good in it
there's still a blessing in it
Heb. for a blessing is in it

 

2 Peter

HCSB at the top , and TNIV below .

1:1 __ obtained a faith of equal privilege with ours
received a faith as precious as ours
I don't know why the HCSB used the word "privilege" . The word "value" would be better .

1:9 __ No conjunction .
But
NET note : The connection , though causal , is also adversative .

1:19 __ strongly confirmed
completely reliable
NET text : altogether reliable .

1:21 __ moved by
carried along by ( same as in NET text )

2:2 __ unrestrained ways
depraved conduct
NET text : debauched lifestyles

2:7 __ unrestrained behavior of the immoral
depraved conduct of the lawless
NET text : the debauched lifestyle of lawless men

2:10 __ they do not tremble when they blaspheme the glorious ones
they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings
NET note : verse 11 seems to suggest that wicked angels are what the author intends .

2:13 __ delighting in their deceptions
reveling in their pleasures
NET text : indulging in their deceitful pleasures
NET note : or carousing , reveling

3:1 __ I awaken your pure understanding with a reminder
reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking
NET text : I am trying to stir up your pure mind by way of reminder

3:3 __ their own lusts
their own evil desires
NET text : their own evil urges
NET note ; going according to their own evil urges

3:4 __ Where is the promise of His coming ?
Where is this 'coming' he promised ?
NET text : Where is his promised return ?
I prefer the TNIV rendering . " Where is the promise of His coming ?" It's in the Bible for a direct answer . But what the text means is " Why hasn't He returned after all this time ?"

3:5 __ the earth existed out of water
the earth was formed out of water ( same as NET text )
The HCSB is worded kind of awkwardly .

 

Hi Marcia . I have read and appreciated " How To Read the Bible For All It's Worth " by Fee & Stuart . They certainly did come out in favor for the TNIV . Even the NSRV was given high marks by them . Honorable mention was also given to the NJB and the REB among others .

I place the TNIV in the essentially literal column . It does use idiomatic language and functional equivalence moreso than the NASU for instance . However , it is closer on a scale to the NASU than many would suspect . The TNIV is what Fee and others have called a mediating translation -- right at the middle point between a formal approach and a more dynamic one .

My personal rankings for English Bible translations may change . From what I have been hearing the ISV is superior to the TNIV . So the HCSB will fall to #3 as to what I prefer . Still the HCSB is a worthwhile translation . The more , the merrier I say .

 

The ISV stands for the International Standard Version . Over 9,000 verses have to be completed in the Old Testament . It is supposed to be very readable , even moreso than the TNIV . But it is also supposed to be highly accurate . So it will be the best of both worlds I guess . I am looking foward to the finished product .

I thought I'd quote some short extracts from : " How To Read The Bible for Al Its Worth " .

... for study you should use almost any modern translation rather than the KJV or the NKJV . (p.40)

But the basic translation for reading and studing should be something in the TNIV/NIV/NRSV range . (p.42)

... a translation by functional equivalence is much to be preferred to a more "literal" translation .(p.46)

[ After giving some contrasting examples from , on the one hand -- NKJV and the NASU , the authors show the NIV/TNIV renderings.] These are not only to be preferred ; they are , in fact , more accurate because they give a genuine English equivalent rather than a literal , Greek way of expressing things that in English would be nearly meaningless . (p.48)

Judiciously rendering Hebrew into English requires an equivalent meaning , not an equivalent word or clause pattern . (p.50)

The authors have some very helpful material on major blocks of the Bible . I also appreciated their Appendix : The Evaluation and Use Of commentaries .

I bought the book in the Philippines in March of 2005 and have consulted it regularly ever since .

 

This subject deals with inclusive verses . The HCSB is not as gender-accurate as the TNIV , but it is better than the ESV . In the book of Proverbs I'll cite the references where the HCSB is more inclusive than the ESV .

1:18 ; 8:31 ; 11:26 ; 12:23 ; 14:31 ; 15:11 ; 16:13 ; 16:32 ; 17:9,10,20 ;18:10 ; 19:6,17 ; 20:27 ; 21:22,24,28 ; 24:20 ; 25:10,19,26 ; 26:7 ; 27:12 ; 8:2,3 ; 29:1,7,13

On the other hand the following references in Proverbs list some places where the ESV is more inclusive than the HCSB .

3:13 ; 12:3 ; 13;14 ; 14:7,16

In Ecc. the HCSB has some more inclusive wording compared with the ESV .

2:3 ; 3:21 ; 6:1 ; 8:8 ; 9:3,4 ; 10:8,9 ; 12:13

Then there is Romans .

1:18 ; 2:1,3; 5:18 ; 9:20 ;14:1

And Luke : 2:52 ; 3:6 ; 5:10 ; 6:39 ; 12:36,37 ; 16:15

 

Dear Keith ,

Howdy . I don't have as much time to spend on the internet as many of you apparently have . But it's better to be late than never to respond to your disinformation .

First of all I'd like to tackle your contention regarding what you have characterized as a "dumbing-down" of some Bible versions . The NIV family in particular was evidently in your scopes . The NIV and TNIV have not dumbed anything down . The NIrV has a certain audience in mind . It's appropriate for children between the ages of 6-10 or so . The NIrV is also suited for people who are not native English speakers . The Lord has seen fit to bless this particular version in those situations . So your slur-words amount to jusr that -- slur words .

If you'd investigate more you would discover that you'd have to eat your words . If you regard all dynamic versions as dumbed-down , you should take a look at the REB . A great deal of it is written in early to mid-Victorian style English .

You 've been aiming your squirt-gun at the TNIV for some time now -- tilting at your windmills . A moderator had to delete your nasty comments about this version a number of months ago . Better watch it , or it could happen again . You could just stick to your usual railing against the KJV'ers although you share many of their characteristics .

Let's talk about the TNIV . Specifically the NT . Only 7% of the NIV has been changed . A good 5% has nothing to do with inclusive language . Many say that the changes have moved it closer to the formal end of the scale .

Regarding the inclusive language : the ESV and HCSB are rather similiar with their renderings in many cases . The last two versions areconsidered conservative . The NLT2 and NET use about as much inclusive language as the TNIV . What's the big deal ?

The Greek word translitereated Adelphoi needs to be mentioned . The TNIV translates that uniformly as " brothers and sisters" . The ESV has "brothers" in the text but has "or brothers and sisters" in the footnotes 151 times ! I counted each instance in the NT . The ESV revisers have seen that "brothers and sisters" is a good alternative . It is not by whim either . Context bears it out .

I'm not a Greek guy but the same thing could be done with Adelphos .

Anthropos and Anthropoi come into view . The ESV team has been inconsistent . Sometimes they let the context naturallly play out to an obvious reference to men and women -- and they translate accordingly . Other times they use male-oriented language . The TNIV renders things more consistenly according to the context of a given passage .

And different language groups do not have the capacity to use male-oriented language the way English does . Those languages can't use a singular form in the generic way that older English does .This "missing male nuance in the TNIV" sounds like a lot of hocus-pocus to me . What is that ancient Jewish practice called ? The Kabal ? It's Kabalistic .

Do you have a problem with translations which use male language when there is no corresponding equivalent in the original languages ? Because you will find examples of this in the NIV , ESV , NASU , NKJ and of course the KJV to name a few . If you believe it is wrong to use inclusive language ( when competent Greek scholars think differenly ) -- how about when the converse occurs ?



Grudem & Co. have done a grave disservice when they try to picture the TNIV team variously as liberals , feminist-leaning , PC-oriented and other such classy labels.

You have admitted that you have not read the HCSB extensively . So I do not know why you have made a categorical claim that it is so superior to the NIV family . Do you even own hard copies of the HCSB or the TNIV ? If not -- don't open your mouth and make unfounded claims . You owe it to yourself to actually read both versions extensively .

I find it humorous that you have mentioned numerous times that I have been put on your ignore list. Do you know the meaning of "ignore" ? It does not mean pay attention to . Why make remarks on my posts if they ruffle your feathers so much ?

As you said , "carry on" Keith . You can ignore this post if you want to

 

This thread is for Van's benefit. Van,I have made several threads regarding the HCSB.This is just one of many. I know that in this thread I was comparing it with the TNIV. The 2011 NIV is very close to the TNIV though.