Are Believers Necessarily Born Again?

My "theology" has nothing to do with it. What sayeth the scripture?

You think you were crucified with Christ before you were baptized? It does not take very long to realize that you cannot have been crucified with Christ prior to baptism. IMPOSSIBLE!

Rom 6 makes that crystal clear.

I did not expect you to like my answer. It does prove that I do not believe in baptismal regeneration. I also noticed that you went to passages that do not deal with baptism in order to explain it away. If we want to understand the purpose of baptism, then we need to deal with the scriptures that actually mention it.

The people in Acts 19 had been baptized for the wrong reason. Why was it necessary to immediately baptize them in the correct way?

You can call it my theology all you want, but I didn't come up with it. Jesus gave the commission and the apostles carried it out. The first time was in Acts 2.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..."

Peter was speaking by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. His instructions are valid.

A short time later, it is recorded in Acts 3:19, "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out..."

Peter did not change his message but was simply stating it in another way.

Acts 2:38 = Acts 3:19
Repent = Repent
be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ = be converted
for the remission of sins = that your sins may be blotted out

Back to Acts 22. No matter anyone's rationalization, you are left with a believer who was an eye witness to the resurrected Savior who has been fasting and praying for 3 days and then is told what to do to have his sins washed away. That same man later wrote the following which is the most complete description of what is actually taking place at baptism:

Rom 6:3-8 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

Notice that phrase "if we have been united together in the LIKENESS of His death". How are we united with Him in death? Verses 3& 4 say, "baptized INTO His death" and "we were buried with Him though baptism INTO death". That is how we are crucified with Christ. YOU CANNOT FIND ANOTHER WAY IN SCRIPTURE.

If you read Acts 22:16, then Rom 6:3-4, you can clearly see what the Apostle Paul thought about baptism.

If I say to you what was said to Paul, "What are you waiting for? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord", don't claim that as my theology. When Paul was told this same thing, did he have any problem understanding that? Did he say, Ananias, what do you mean call on the name of the Lord? Is that when my sins are washed away? I've been praying for 3 days and now you want me to call on the name of the Lord? No, he arose and was baptized and he had his sins washed away, thus calling on the name of the Lord.

 

No it not contradictory. Please understand. I know and believe that justification is by faith. No question. There is not one thing that I can do to earn one iota of my salvation. Naaman did not earn his cure of leprosy. He was cured by faith. The people who looked upon the brass snake did not earn their cure, they were cured by faith. When I obey a command of Jesus on the mere fact that He said to do it, I am doing that by faith. That is true for marching around walls or baptism, as we will see shortly.

The bible would be self-contradictory if it somewhere else denied that baptism puts one into Christ (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27), or if it denied that baptism was for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), or if it somewhere else denied it was necessary to be baptized to be saved (Mark 16:16), or if it denied our sins were washed away at baptism (Acts 22:16) or if it somewhere else denied that we are saved at baptism (I Pet 3:21).

Eph 2:1-10 is in wonderful harmony with the rest of scripture. It is in wonderful harmony with Rom 6. They both talk about being dead and being made alive. Both talk about us being raised with Christ. Do you really think he is talking about 2 separate events? Were we raised twice with Christ? No! Christ only had one resurrection and so do we. We are united with that one resurrection when we are raised from the waters of baptism (Rom 6:4-5).


I feel confident if everyone truly understood, "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal 3:26-27

How do we put on Christ? In baptism
How do we get INTO Christ? baptized INTO Christ

How wonderful!!! In Christ, we are sons of God through faith because we have been baptized into Christ and put on Christ.

Or, as Paul puts it in Col 2:12, "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead."

How are we raised with him? Through faith. Hold on. Many people on this board claim that faith means mental assent and cannot mean that any action or "work" is taking place. That is nonsense and unbiblical. A simple reading of Hebrews 11 will dispel that, if one has the biblical understanding of faith. Now back to Col 2:12. Raised from what through faith? The burial of baptism. Baptism is through faith. That is a simple teaching from scripture. Rom 6 gives an even more complete description of what is taking place in baptism, that baptism unites our death, our burial, and our resurrection with Christs' death, burial, and resurrection.

 

Of course it is possible by the Faith. YOu are saying it is possible only by Baptism. You are replacing the Faith with Baptism, which is called Baptismal Regeneration. That is very much wicked idea !

You don't have such experience of Faith. Throughout the history, such people without faith killed the millions of believers with the experience of Faith.

You are confessing that you are baptizing Unbelievers and turn them into believers thru the magic power of WATER.

So, your religion must be called " Aquaris", not the Christianity.

They didn't hear about Jesus, they were not baptized in the name of Jesus and therefore they needed it properly.

Acts 3:19 is the aorist infinitive. Though it is infinitive, it has the meaning of aorist which means the occurance in the past, only once.
Peter was asking the people to repent and return to the fact that your sins had been blotted out ( at the Cross).

Where does Peter say that they should be baptized in order for their sins to be blotted out? Why does Peter omit the most important word in your theology?

Your own reference betrays you ! Your own Bible rebukes you, Sir.

So, did Ananias baptize the sinner? You sound like Ananias was baptizing Buddhists and Atheists, then turned them into Christian believers by the magic power of Water !

I repeat, Ac 22:16 and Ro 6 teach us that Baptism is the external expression of the Faith, the visible demonstration and the declaration of what was already believed and accepted.
Already before the Baptism, the True believers are convinced that they were united into Christ by the Holy Spirit. Baptism is the confirmation of what was already spiritually accepted and believed.

I know all the resorts of yours: Mk 1616, Mt 2819, ac0238, ac2216, Ep0405, Gal0327.

Ephesians 4:5 says One Faith, before One Baptism !

One minute before Baptism, no belief, unbeliever, unsaved

One minute after Baptism, becomes a believer, saved.

You are baptizing unbeliver, unsaved, hell bounding people.

Your theology goes with Infant Baptism.

You admit that one can be justified by Faith, regardless of Baptism, right?
If anyone is justified and become righteous, is he or she not saved ?

 

I'm sure you think you are being clever. However, you continually fail to grasp the obvious.

Let me repeat. Belief is a pre-requisite for baptism (Mark 16:16). If one does not believe, he is condemned already. Not being baptized does not bring a greater condemnation. One cannot be baptized without first believing. I guess we could call that swimming.

Why would an unbeliever submit to baptism? They wouldn't. What good would it do? None at all. THERE IS NO POWER IN WATER.

Where is the power? It is in the blood. Where was the blood shed? On the cross at His death. What came forth from His pierced side? Blood and water.

How do we come in contact with His death? Baptism (Rom 6:3-4).

Reject it, make fun of it, ignore it, but it is still there. The bible, in case you haven't noticed, does not teach everything about a topic in one verse. Also, not everything that was said is recorded. Enough is recorded for us to have the truth. You must see all that God has to say on the subject to have the truth.

Acts 3:19 is equivalent to Acts 2:38. He didn't have to use the word baptism because it was UNDERSTOOD that being baptized was the same as being converted.

Repent = Repent
be baptized in the name of Jesus = be converted
for the remission of sins = sins blotted out

Question, Did Peter, who was speaking as the Holy Spirit gave him utterance, answer correctly when he replied in Acts 2:38, telling the believers they needed to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins?

Why did the believers in Acts 2:37 not already have the forgiveness of sins? The same reason Saul did not.

Again, if you would understand Gal 3:26 and 27, we would not be having this conversation. (In Christ, we are children of God by faith because we have been baptized into Christ and have put on Christ).

 

If you have trouble understanding the word "for" in "for the remission of sins" in Acts 2:38, I'm sure you don't have any trouble understanding it in the same Greek phrase in Matt 26:28, "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Let's just suppose for argument's sake that one's sins are washed away at baptism. That at baptism, one comes in contact with the death of Christ and His blood that flowed, therefore at baptism, one's sins are washed away by the blood of Christ.

Lets look at some verses that deal with baptism and see how this fits:

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. (That fits fine, no problems).

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Again, fine, no problems)

Acts 22:16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.' (Fits perfectly)

Rom 6:3-8 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him (Another perfect fit)

Gal 3:26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Fits perfectly)

I Pet 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (Another fit)

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. (While this does not specifically mention baptism it certainly fits with the idea that one comes in contact with the blood through the water).

So, all of these passages fit perfectly with no need to expain anything away.

Now, lets say that when one believes, his sins are washed away then they are baptized later as a symbol of that salvation.

Mark 16:16 - Problem. It must be explained to show that it really means "He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized"

Acts 2:38 - Problem. He we have believers being told they need to do something else in order to receive the remission of sins. Therefore belief alone cannot provide the remission of sins. You are left with a lofty mental gymnastic trick to explain away the "repent AND be baptized" for the remission of sins. This simply cannot mean what it says.

Acts 22:16 - Huge problem. This may be the biggest thorn in the side. Here we have a believer who has been fasting and praying for 3 days. He was told to go into the city and there it would be told to him what he MUST do. The first instruction he receives is to "Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord". Why was belief and prayer not enough? It must be shown that Ananais lied to Saul and his sins were already forgiven, even though there is not even the smallest hint of evidence in the scriptures. It must be shown that the calling on the name of the Lord is what is tied to the washing away of his sins, even though he had been calling on Jesus for 3 days. It must be shown that Ananias really meant, call on Jesus one more time and wash away your sins, then go and be baptized.

Rom 6:3-8 - Another hugh problem. Here is states that we come in contact with the death of Christ, and we are baptized INTO Christ. It must be shown that we have already come in contact with the death of Christ and that we are already in Christ. Just ignore this passage or dismiss it as symbolic. It doesn't really mean what it says. It means that when we believe we come in contact with the death of Christ and are put into Christ. Later, we are baptized to show that.

Gal 3:26-27 - Another symbolic passage. Just ignore it. It says we are children of God through faith and we need to stop reading right there. That is enough. The rest of the passage is meaningless. We believe and are put into Christ and we put on Christ. Baptism merely symbolizes that. Ignore the plain teaching of this passage.

I Pet 3:21 - When Peter says, "There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism" he really means " There is also an antitype which now saves us not--baptism

What's the big deal about adding one word. It's been done before "You shall surely die" to "You shall not surely die"

Peter doesn't mean it. I know this verse says something saves us, but it's not true.

Jn 19:34 - Just a piece of meaningless trivia

If you want the truth about baptism, see all that God has said about it. Study the passages that deal with it.

I am saying this sincerely. I certainly hope your arguments against baptism make sense to you, because, logically speaking, they don't to me.

 

If the person believed in Jesus, he or she was already saved.
Don't you believe these verses?

Jn 6:47
He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

1 Jon 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life


Luke 18:42
Thy faith hath saved thee ( you may say, you need a baptism ! or after Cross, you need the baptism)


If anyone believed in Jesus, he or she is already saved.

No, you are replacing Faith with Baptism.

Gal 3:27 is the Spiritual Baptism.
Look at here:

Mt 20:22
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

Was Jesus not baptized yet? Wasn't He talking about the Crucifixion?

You can never explain the case of Cornellius where Holy Spirit fell on him first, then thereafter he was baptized ( Ac 10:43-48)

Ac 3:19 doesn't mention about Baptism.
Ac 2:38 means " Repent for the remission of sins, then be baptised" simple, Sir.


Baptism is like a wedding ceremony which ratifies the actual marriage. Sometimes couple live together without wedding ceremony, which may be shameful but doesn't negate the marrital relationship. Joseph and Mary may haven't got the wedding ceremony as they were poor, but it doesn't mean that their marriage was void and null.
Baptism is the confirmation of what was spiritually believed and accepted.

Ro 6:3-4 portrays such relationship thru the Water Baptism as it is 100% copy of Spiritual Baptism.

I think Quaker, Bullingerians emphasize the spriritual Baptism so much that they ignore the importance of Water Baptism. They are wrong, but it doesn't mean that their salvation is void as long as they were truly born again.

 

I have no trouble understanding the "for" of Acts 2:38. Based upon your reply to Eliyahu about having to believe the `right things' about baptism to be saved, it seems that you do.

The whole `comes into contact with Christ's blood' is a very speculative notion of common Church of Christ theology.

Scripture nowhere authorizes any notion that people are in any position to move themselves into salvation by their own deeds. Romans 8:2-8 seems to refute any such notion.

Mman: I have no "arguments against baptism." Any person who rightly knows of Scripture's commands of water baptism, yet refuses it, is no follower of Christ. S/he is an unbeliever.

A common accusation `salvation upon completed baptism' believers throw upon those who disagree with them is that we are `opposing baptism.' It is a lie. I have no time for such games.

Now, sticking to what is true, I have certainly studied the passages in relation to baptism. I have also studied Scripture passages in regard to salvation as a whole.

Assuming a premise and seeing if the evidence is consistent with it does not necessarily mean the premise is true. For centuries, the known information of the natural universe was consistent with the Ptolemaic theory of all planets orbiting the earth. This did not make the theory true.

Now, I have long known about the passage excerpts and the passage misunderstandings used to teach `salvation upon completed baptism.' They might be consistent with your preconceived assumption that no matter what, water baptism is the point of salvation.

Acts 2:38 teaches repentance for the remission of sins, with baptism as an obligation from such repentance, as evident from foreign translations of the Greek -- word order was not vitally important in Greek as in English. Material after Mark 16:8 does not teach that failure to be baptized nullifies the effects of believing on Christ. I Peter 3:21 when it is not truncated denies that the water ceremony saves. Acts 22:16 teaches that we was away our sins by calling on the name of the Lord to save us. Galatians 3:24-7 to the ancient Greek-reading audience would not have had the implications you put on part of it. Romans 6:2-11 is not a passage about the effects of baptism -- it is a passage using pictorial representations of how Christians should relate to lives of sin. As you noted in citing it in favor of your position, John 19:34 does not address baptism.

The problem is that your misinterpretations are in direct contradiction to such passages as John 3:16-8 and Ephesians 2:8-10 -- or Ephesians 2:1-10 if you want to extend it. Reading Scripture more thoroughly, and research over the ancient world and biblical languages since the early 1800's, has enabled better understandings of baptism passages that do not contradict passages teaching that we are saved and avoid condemnation by biblical faith in Jesus Christ.

 

That is not all the scripture has to say concerning eternal life. If you ignore certain passages, then you will never have truth.

Jn 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Here is some of Jesus final instructions to His apostles, after his death, burial and resurrection: Mark 16:16, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Now do you believe Jesus or are you going to argue with Him that He didn't really mean it.

If you are going to use this as a proof text, you really need to seach for another. Here is the whole verse, "And Jesus said to him, "Recover your sight; your faith has made you well." - Luke 18:42

First of all, his "Faith" led to the restoring of his sight. If this is applicable today, then why are there any blind christians????

Second, Jesus says it is his faith, not his belief alone. He did not sit quietly by only believing. No, he exerted effort. He cried loudly to Jesus, making himself known, then he had to ask for what he wanted. He did not ask for salvation but for sight. There were many blind people who believed in Jesus. He was one of them. He could believe all he wanted, but until he was in the physical presense of Jesus and able to ask for his sight to be restored, it was not.

So Jesus was totally confused when He stated, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but(AI) whoever does not believe will be condemned." - Mark 16:16

Those believers in Acts 2:37 were not saved. They were told to "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38)

Saul was not not saved after believing and praying for 3 days. He still needed to have his sins washed away (Acts 22:16)

John 12:42, those who believed but would not confess were already saved, yet Jesus will deny them before God (Matt 10:33).

More to come later. Gotta run.

 

We repeat the same grade again.

1) You are denying the fundamental truth that the sinners are saved by faith only, believing in Jesus. This is fundamental truth as we read Romans 1:17. The just shall live by Faith+Baptism according to mman's bible.

2) Mark 16:16
What about these men? they who believeth but are not baptized are condemned to go to the hell? It is according to the bible for the Baptismal Regeneration.


3) Acts 2:37 - They didn't repent yet, and that's why Peter asked them to Repent for the Remission of Sins, then be baptised.
If the Repent didn't include the believing, Pter should have said " Repent, Believe, and be baptized" But he said Repent-Be Baptized as the repentance without believing means nothing.

4) You could never explain, why Cornellius received the Holy Spirit without being baptized! Read ac 10:43-48 again.

 

The only time the bible uses the term faith only, it says that is NOT what saves. But according to you, it does. We are not saved by anything only. Not grace only, not belief only, not faith only, not baptism only, not anything only.

Ok, Jesus I believe in you, I'm going to make you the Lord of my life, but I'm not going to do what you say.

Belief without obedience is spiritual abortion. Why would you call Him Lord and do not the things that he says.

If Jesus said, "Whoever believes and stands on their head for a minute will be saved, and whoever believeth not shall be condemned", guess what? I'm not going to be looking for explainations as to why I don't have to do what He said, but I'm going to stand on my head for a minute.

If you don't believe Jesus meant what he said, that's up to you. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the words of Christ (Rom 10:17)

I'm afraid you are twisting the passage to say what you want it to say. It actually says, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins;" NOT "Repent for the remission of sins, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ;"

Oh, you said sinners were saved by faith only. Now you admit that is wrong, that believers must repent.. Now it is faith plus repentance. What about those who believe and don't repent (Jn 12:42).

Peter didn't have to tell them to believe, they already believed. That is my point exactly. They didn't need to be told to believe, because they already believed. He told them what they NEEDED to do in addition to their belief. Their belief alone was not enough. They still needed the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

They still needed to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

That totally destroys your position of faith only.

That is no problem at all. I have done it time and time again. You equate that with salvation. The bible does not. Many have been dull of hearing, but I will tell you again. To get the whole account, read Acts 10 and Acts 11. That is how we can have the truth.

Cornelius was to send for Peter who would "tell him words by which you...will be saved".

Acts 11:13-15, "And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, ‘Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.

As he began to speak, the HS fell on them. Chapter 10 tells us it was when he was speaking. From that chapter, we don't know if it was as the beginning, middle, or end of his "words that will bring salvation". From Chapter 11, we see it was as he began to speak. Now, you cannot believe something before you hear it. The HS fell on them before the words that will bring salvation were heard. So, why did the HS fall on them? So Peter would know that he was to baptize them in the name of Jesus, or in other words, baptize them in water (Acts 10:47-48) just as he had done to those in Acts 2:38,41.

If you try to equate the HS with a sign of salvation, then you have people being saved before they believe. Is that what you think??? Not me.

This was certainly a unique example in scripture. It is the second time it occurred. The first was on the day of Pentecost before the gospel was first preached to the Jews and the second was in Acts 10 & 11 when the gospel was first preached to the Gentiles. In both cases, people were commanded to be baptized in the name of the Lord, or submit to a baptism in water. Acts 2 clearly tells us this is for the remission of sins.

What do you think it means, "in the name of the Lord". It means by His authority. If you read Matt 28:18-20 and Mark 16:15-16, we have the commission. It is for all people.

Either you accept Jesus' words, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" or you don't. Any other passage does not negate this passage.

Why don't you use the passages that deal with baptism to understand the purpose of baptism.

There is NOTHING in Rom 6 to indicate that baptism is representative of some prior salvation. Nothing! Nada! Zilch! Zero! It isn't there.

What is does say is that at baptism we are united with Christ's death, and like as He was raised, we too are raised to walk in a new life. It says we ARE baptized INTO Christ. Not that we are baptized to show that we are already in Christ.

You are saying that one can put on Christ prior to baptism. That is not found in scripture. We put on Christ at baptism. Gal 3:27, "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Who have put on Christ? Just as many of you as were baptized INTO Christ. No more, no less.

Many of the people on this board want baptism to be some symbolic act that is an outward sign of some inward grace, a command that should be obey after "salvation". That is not taught anywhere in scripture. NO PASSAGE DEALING WITH BAPTISM GIVES EVEN THE SLIGHTEST HINT OF THAT!!!

Now, what are you waiting on? Arise and be baptized and wash away yours sins, calling on the name of the Lord (Acts 22:16).

 

So basically, Acts 2:38 doesn't mean what it says and you are forced to go to foreign translations to "Prove your point".

Only someone truly motivated would be looking to show that it doesn't mean what it says.

Acts 22:16 does not teach that calling on the name of the Lord is what washes away sins. Read the passage, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord"

Those in Acts 2 were told to call on the name of the Lord (Acts 2:21). The heard the message and were cut to the heart, therefore they believed it (Acts 2:37) and asked what they needed to do? The reply was repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) which was basically the same thing told to Saul.

Calling on the name of the Lord does not equate to belief. Both Paul and those in Acts 2 believed. They wanted to be right. Paul had fasted and prayed for 3 days. He had been calling on the name of the Lord for 3 days and still needed to have his sins washed away. You cannot expain that away.

Gal 3:26-27 doesn't mean what it says in English, is that your logic to ignore this passage?

What? Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Do you not know that? At baptism, one is 1) baptized into Christ and 2) baptized into his death

Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

At baptism, we were 1) buried with him into death, 2) raised from the dead just as Christ was raised from the dead, and 3) we are raised to walk in a new life (That BEGINS AT BAPTISM).


Rom 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,

If we have been united together in the likeness of His death (in baptism), certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection (Only applies to those united with Him in baptism).

Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

When was our old man crucified with Him? When we were baptized and UNITED with Him in death, then and only then are we no longer slaves of sin.

Rom 6:7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

When did we die? He just told us. We were buried with Him through baptism into death (Rom 6:4). Therefore since we have died, been buried, and raised up together with Christ, we are freed from sin.


Rom 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

You can't live with Christ, unless you've DIED WITH CHRIST. How do we die with Christ? Rom 6:3-5 makes it plain that we are baptized into his death and united with Him in death.

If words have meaning, and I think they do, then this passage absolutely says what takes place at baptism. You can ignore it, dismiss it, reject it, make fun of it, minimize it, but it is plain what takes place at baptism. You cannot make it go away by saying its not really talking about what happens at baptism.....

I have shown the harmony of this time and time again. Your method of harmonizing it is to ignore the passages dealing with baptism or claim they don't really mean what they say.

Read Eph 2:1-10 and Rom 6:1-8. Both talk about death and resurrection. We are only united with the ONE resurrection of Christ and that is through baptism.

Baptism does not earn anything. We cannot and don't earn salvation. Impossible. John 19:34 is not a meaningless piece of trivia. The bible doesn't contain filler. Water and blood came forth from Jesus' side.

Can you show how one comes in contact with the death of Christ where his blood flowed and omit baptism? Why would you want to when there is a plain passage that tells us how we are united with his death?

 

mman, you came back fast!
So, you don't believe in the 5 Solas; Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Christus, Sola Deo Gloria, which all come from the Bible if you read it carefully.

As for the Faith alone, let me show you my survey:Words in () are according to your theology, your Bible or according to the Bible Modification Society.

Mr 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

( He that believeth but is not baptized shall be damned ! according to the Bible Modification Society)


[FONT=바탕]John 1:12[/FONT]
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name ( and is baptized)

Joh 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(Whosoever believeth in him but is not baptized should perish ! - this sounds like Curse-Pel !)

Joh 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(Whosoever believeth in him but is not baptized should perish and shall have no everlasting life!)

Joh 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ( He that believeth on him but is not baptized is condemned ! the Robber at the Cross will be taken out of the Paradise !)

Joh 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

(He that believeth on the Son but have no Baptism hath no everlasting life !)

[FONT=바탕]John 5:[/FONT]
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life ( Remember the tense here :, already has got the eternal life ! Not yet have the everlasting life, but need the Baptism !)

Joh 6:40 -
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. ( need the Baptism in your theology)

Joh 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
( you are saying this is not salvation, but need Baptism !)

Joh 7:38
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. ( OH, Here is the Water again ! Water indicates Baptism ! according to Gospel of Baptismal Regeneration)


Joh 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
(through Baptism)

Ac 8:37
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Look, the Eunuch believed before Baptism ! How could he believe in Jesus?

Paul said " Believe in Jesus Christ, then you will be saved" ( Ac 16:31)
Then wasn't he saved at this time? Thereafter he was baptised, right ?

Ac 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

( whosoever is baptized shall receive the remission of sins)

Ac 13:39
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. ( Is the justfied person going to the Hell if he or she is not baptized?)

Ac 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized, and thou shalt be saved.

 

Ro 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
( Believeth and be baptized)
Ro 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith ( and acts of Obedience- Baptism)

Ro 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Ro 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Ro 3:26
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Ro 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Ro 3:30
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Ro 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. ( Abraham was circumcized, but get the righteousness before Circumcision ! Wasn't Circumcision the act of obedience?)

Ro 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Ro 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ro 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


Ro 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ro 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

1Co 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Ga 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. ( Are the Justified going to the Hell ?)



Ga 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? ( NO! By Baptism !)

Ga 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith ( by Baptism)


Ga 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
.
Ga 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
( Are the children of God baptized into Christ?)

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: ( No ! by Baptism !)

Eph 3:17
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love

Eph 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism ( Baptism after Faith)
( One faith by Holy Spirit)

2Ti 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus

Heb 10:39
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

]1 Peter 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Jo 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

( Note ! believers already have the Eternal Life !)

 

mman,

1. The people in Jn 12:42 were saved though they were coward and didn't confess their faith publicly. It was a shameful salvation. Even today there are many believers like that though they were even baptized.

2. Regardless whether the Holy Spirit fell on Cornellius at the beginning of the sermon or in the middle of the sermon, they received the Holy Spirit before the Water Baptism. There is the time lag between 2 experiences.

The people who received the Holy Spirit are going to the Hell?
Then the Holy Spirit may reside in the Hell in your theology.
The people who has got the Everlasting Life go to the Hell?

Jesus repeatedly said " whosoever believeth in me hath got the Everlasting Life ! Please check the tenses in the sentences.

3. Jesus made a mistake in his message to Nicodemus according to your theology, as He had to say " Be born again by Holy Spirit before my death, Be born again by Water and Holy Spirit after my Resurrection"

You are adding one more condition - Baptism as you are highly obssessed with BAPTISM.

 

Written to me:

Here is the verse plainly:

"E disse-lhes Pedro: Arrependei-vos, e cada um de vós seja batizado em nome de Jesus Cristo, para perdão dos pecados; e recebereis o dom do Espirito Santo" (DA ERC).
​

The verse means exactly what it says.

It seems like you are tremendously dependent upon certain English translations to bolster your view that it teaches `salvation upon completed baptism.'

I am sitting here reading the verse as I have many times before. It teaches that repentance is for pardon of sins, and that baptism is obligated from such repentance. There is no evidence in the passage for your view.

 

Of course I rely on the English translations. I am not forced to go in search of anything to fit my theology. English is my first language. It is very telling that you must resort to a foreign translation as a basis for your agrument.

I guess you pity all the poor people who only understand English. Not one group of English translators ever got it right, did they. Do you know how ridicilous that is?

How blind is one who just won't see.

The two commands, “repent” and “be baptized,” are joined by the conjunction “and.” It follows that if repentance is essential to salvation, so also is baptism. On the other hand, if baptism may be dismissed, repentance may be as well.

When asked the question, "Is it grammatically possible that the phrase ‘for the remission of sins,’ in Acts 2:38, expresses the force of both verbs, ‘repent ye’ and ‘be baptized each one of you,’ even though these verbs differ in both person and number?”, F.W. Gingrich, co-translator, along with William Arndt, of the highly-respected Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature replied, “Yes. The difference between metanoesate [repent] and baptistheto [be baptized] is simply that in the first instance, the people are viewed together in the plural, while in the second the emphasis is on each individual.”

It is a fundamental form of grammatical construction that a group may be addressed with a general command; and then, as a matter of emphasis, a second injunction may be issued to each individual within the group—both commands being equally obligatory.

 

Thank you for all those verses. I love them all. However, not one of them is contradictory to the verses on baptism. In fact they are in complete harmony.

Still, if you want to understand the purpose of baptism, look at the verses that tell about baptism. If you ignore them or think they are trumped by another, then you will never have the truth.

So, you really think those in John 12:42 who would not confess Jesus because they loved the praises of men more than the praises of God, are saved???

WHAT? They violate Matt 10:33. Jesus won't confess them before God. Does that sound like they are saved?

They didn't repent since they never changed. Jesus said to repent or perish (Luke 13:3, 5).

Not everyone that sayeth Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom, but he that DOETH the will of the Father in Heaven (Matt 7:21). These weren't doing the will of the Father and even refused to call Jesus Lord.

I know you are forced into this corner, but only a cursory view of scriptures will show those in John 12:42 to be LOST.

John 3:36 says, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Now those in John 12 were not obeying the Son, yet you say they would see eternal life, yet that is in clear violation of this passage.

Here is one our big differences. When you see the word faith, you think believe. When I see the word faith, I think believe and obey. That is how Heb 11 uses the word faith, believe and obey.

When the bible uses the believe, you think mental assent. When I see the word believe, I see believe enough to obey any and all commands.

When the jailer, rejoiced "having believed" (Acts 16:34), does that mean he only had mental assent? No. He had heard the word of the Lord (vs 31), showed his repentance in his actions (vs 33) and he was baptized at once (vs 33). After doing all that, it says he rejoiced "having believed".

Those in Acts 2, heard the word, believed it, repented and were baptized (through verse 41), then they are described as "all who believed" in verse 44.

You can never use the definition of faith as being "belief alone" and explain what Heb 11 means.

Noah didn't build an ark by belief alone, no, he built the ark by faith (Heb 11:7). It took a lot of effort, I'm sure. It was not according to his plan, but God's. He did all that God commanded (Gen 6:22). The bible calls that faith.

Abel's offering was not by belief alone. No, he offered (action) by faith (Heb 11:4). God told him what to do, and he did it. That is faith.

By faith, Abraham obeyed. He had action. He obeyed God and it said to be done by faith (Heb 11:8).

By faith Sarah conceived (Heb 11:11). She did not conceive by belief alone. There has only been one virgin birth.

By faith, Abraham offered Isaac (Heb 11:17). He obeyed God.

By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned (Heb 11:29). God told them to go and they went.

By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. (Heb 11:30). They didn't fall down because the people only believed, they fell down because they obeyed God. Action was required. When they obeyed, that is called faith. The didn't earn it, it was a gift (Josh 6:2).

When God gives us instructions, and we follow those instruction, it can be said that what ever is done, is done by faith.

Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". When we obey, it can be said that by faith we are saved, even if it included action on our part.

That is EXACTLY what is said in Gal 3:26-27, "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Col 2:12 says, "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead."

We are raised through faith. This is the only passage in scripture that attributes some type of work in baptism, and it is God doing the work. We are raised though faith.

Speaking of being raised with Christ, Rom 6 still exists, which tells of the wonderful things that happen when we are baptized INTO Christ. In Acts 2, all we know is that baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), or that sins are washed away at baptism (Acts 22:16), however, Rom 6 tells us what happens, being united with Christ in death, being baptized INTO Christ, and just as He was raised we too are raised to walk in a new life.

 

Written to me:

To use your line of reasoning: `Oh, all those poor people who only understand Portuguese.'

There are people who read those translations exclusively. I do not believe that those people are on a lesser plane. I also believe in considering all the evidence when we really want the truth.

Unlike you, I see no reason to not believe that both English translations and foreign translations are perfectly legitimate translations worthy of being fully considered.

You are so anglo-centric that you refuse to accept that -- especially when it is not convenient for you.

As for your excerpt from two recognized scholars, I agree with you on their credentials. However, I would always take a professionally-made translation in any language over an excerpt from an undocumented source -- especially when that translation has been widely-received by those who use the languages.

I have addressed a similar claim on my beliefs by you before. I insist that we limit this exchange between you and I to things I actually believe.

 

Your misunderstanding is better revealed as time goes on.

The people of Jn 12:42 (may not be all) were saved. 2 of them were these:

Jn 19:
38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus. 39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. 40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury

Nicodemus came to Jesus secretly in the night.

The first obedience to God is to believe in Jesus, then the person is saved.
The saved person can obey God. If anyone is not saved, any acts of obedience are hypocrisy.

YOu overlooked and ignored this word:

Jn 12:
42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue

Your modified Bible says many unbelieved on Him.

" Believe" is a start, it is not the action or works. You try to include Works in the faith, which is the theology of Baptismal Regeneration.

You are almost successful in modifyung the Bible.

" Believe in Jesus Christ and be Baptized, then you will be saved" ( ac 16:31)

MY Bible is this:

"Believe in Jesus Christ, then you will be saved" (ac 16:31)

In that stage, the person, Jailor was already saved, then Paul ans Silas baptized him.

YOu are saying, Jailor believed, but in that stage, he is in the status of Unsaved, unforgiven, Hell bounding sinner, then Paul baptized such Unsaved sinner.
The problem is whether the Believer has NO Everlasting Life if he is not baptized. YOu are insisting that the believer, even though he or she believe in Jesus, will go to the Hell if he or she is not baptized, which is a very wicked theory disproving the Truth of Salvation by Faith alone.

Repent and Believe are inter-changeable as the True Repentance comes with Belief.
Believers were baptized, and continued to believe in Jesus.

Belief is Belief, it is not any act.
Noah had the faith, the faith moves the person to work. So, the Believing is the starting point of all the obedience. Believe is first and obey follows later.

By faith Abel offered unto God more excellent sacrifices than Cain.

Don't modify the Bible for your manufactured theory, Sir.

They all had the faith, and therefore they were saved, then their lives were changed and obeyed God. Baptism is the act of obedience after someone is Saved.

Yes, I did so, though you deny it.

You could never answer me about the destiny of the person who believed in Jesus but was not baptized and died. Is he going to the Hell ?

This exactly tell the Truth.

I am baptized into Christ first, then was baptized in the water later
which is the shadow of the truth that I was baptized into Christ.

Are you baptized into Water ? Water is nothing but the shadow of Jesus Christ. The most important thing is JESUS CHRIST. He is my everything !

It is the shadow of what Jesus has done for us. The real, core truth which is Jesus Christ and His death and Resurrection is more important.

Yes, you are correct, not by Baptism.

Ac 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Mt 26:28

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Heb 9
and without shedding of blood is no remission.


Shedding the Blood is an absolute Must for Remission of Sins.

Faith is the media connecting such Truth with the Believer.

Baptism is the shadow of such truth in obedience to God.


As long as one has already connected oneself with the Blood of Jesus, his sins were forgiven and he is already saved.