Are Believers Necessarily Born Again?

Your bible doesn't have the "rest of the story"? Do you stop reading in verse 31.

He was not saved in Verse 31 and I can prove it. He didn't know what to believe? The gospel has never been preached there before. He likely had never even heard of Jesus.

YOU CANNOT BELIEVE IN WHAT YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD!

OK, when does the bible say he believed? Before or after he heard the word of the Lord? It was after.

Of course he was an unsaved sinner. He had not been baptized into Christ. He had not been united with the death of Christ, where the blood flowed (Rom 6). However, he didn't stay that way long. He was baptized at once. Then he rejoiced, having believed in God.

You should really not stop in vs 31 if you want the truth of the matter.

Salvation by faith alone is taught nowhere in scripture.

Here is your problem. Ignoring baptism, you cannot find any other way to get INTO Christ. You cannot find a way to be united with Christ in his death or his resurrection.

Salvation is in Christ (II Tim 2:10). There is no condemnation in Christ (Rom 8:1). Therefore outside of Christ, one does not have salvation and therefore is condemned.

Now, man can devise all sorts of plans and theories as to how one gets INTO Christ or you can search the scriptures and see what God says.

You can search from cover to cover and you will only find one way to get INTO Christ. It is found twice in scripture and both times it says that we are baptized INTO Christ.

Trust me, if it were up to me, I would be on your side. That is much more pleasing to the ear. Only believe and while we're at it, once your saved you can never forfeit your salvation. If I were making the rules, those sound like some good ones to me. However my ways are not God's ways, and my thoughts aren't his thoughts.

If I truly believe God, I will obey Him, whether He requires me to stand on my head or in baptism.

They are not interchangable. Acts 2:37, What must we do? Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

Now, Peter did not tell them to do something they were already doing. They believed, or they would not have been cut to the heart. Therefore, his instructions in Acts 2:38 were in addition to their belief alone.

Why don't you call the belief and obedience what the bible calls it, faith?

I didn't. I am simply showing you the biblical definition of faith according to Heb 11.

The bible is plain. In fact, I don't have to answer it, because Jesus already did. Either you believe the words of Jesus or you don't. Either Jesus was telling the truth or He was lying. I say He was speaking the truth when He said, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. - Mark 16:16

Certainly you have some scripture to back up this idea? The baptism INTO Christ is a burial (Rom 6:4). Into what were you buried?

There is a resurrection (Rom 6:4-5) associated with the burial. From what were you raised out of?

No where in scripture is this taught that one is baptized in water as a shadow of the truth that they had already been baptized into Christ. It simply is not there. You are teaching 2 baptisms, yet today there is just one (Eph 4:5).

I will admit, I have never heard that explanation as to why Rom 6 doesn't really mean that our baptism in water is a burial and resurrection. I guess it has to be explained away somehow or baptism in water really does put one into Christ.

Another thing, any time that someone spoke the word of the Lord, or preached Jesus, baptism in water immediately followed (Acts 8:12, 35-38, 16:32-33).

One is baptized into Christ. If Christ is your everything, why not accept what He said? "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."?

Now if He has said, "Whoever believes and is saved will be baptized, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." and if the passages such as Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom 6, Gal 3:26-27, Col 2:12, and I Pet 3:21 were ommitted, then I would believe just like you do.

Have I ever denied that? NO!!! If you think I did, then you are mistaken. The blood is the only thing that can cleanse our sins. Period.

How do we come in contact with the blood?

Jn 19:34 - Blood and water flowed from His side
Matt 26:28 - Blood = "for the remission of sins"
Acts 2:38 - Baptized (water) = "for the remission of sins"

Rom 6:3 Baptized (water) into death (blood).

Again we have the blood and the water connected, just as it flowed from the crucified Savior's side.

Do you even have one passage that even remotely suggests that baptism is a "shadow"? I have studied this for many years and I know that you don't.

So, where is your scripture that unites belief with the death of Christ, where his blood flowed?

I have one for baptism (Rom 6:3-4).

 

Yet you don't accept the widely-received English translations?

When I say you dismiss baptism, I agree, that is a poor choice of words. I know you accept baptism, just not a water baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), a water baptism that puts one into Christ (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27), baptism that unites one with the death of Christ, where His blood flowed(Rom 6:3-4).

Is that more accurate?

 

I accept both. When one seems more accurate than another or clearer, I point to it. I do not do one or the other `a priori.'

Actually, yes. I believe in a water baptism as prescribed in the New Testament for followers of Christ -- excluding your inadequately-supported opinions ascribed to it.

The passages you cite do not support your opinions and other passages testify against those opinions. Therefore, I reject a water baptism with your opinions. I do believe in a water baptism for followers of Christ as prescribed by the correct understandings of the Scriptures.

 

mman,

I showed you dozens of verses in the previous pages, but you cannot read them, right?

so, I have only this verse to add to them:

Seeing they see not, hearing they hear not ( Mt 13:13)

Acts 16:31 And they said Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. ( King James Version)


mman's bible

Acts 16:31 And they said " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized by water, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" ( mman's version)

hundreds of verses confirms Salvation by Faith alone, by Grace alone.

You are baptized into Water, I am baptized into Christ.

In your theology, Blood of Jesus is just a decoration, and believing it means nothing but the preliminary exercise for the baptism before anyone dive into the water regardless the water is cold or hot. For me, Faith is His Blood means everything and such belief is important, then one can be immersed in the water.

It is your desperate cry but God wouldn't be happy with your stubbornness.

 

You accuse me of not seeing when you stop reading in Acts 16:31.

What could he believe? The gospel had not been preached there previously. The word of the Lord included instructions for water baptism. When he complied the scripture says, and yes, it is found in MY bible and it is in yours unless you have ripped it out, that after his baptism, he "rejoiced having believed" - Acts 16:34

You cannot hold one scripture above another. As the psalmist said, "The entirety of Your word is truth".

How many times does God have to say something for you to believe it? Do we count the passages? Do we print them out and weigh them? To understand a subject, look at all that God has to say on it.

Mark 16:16, Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 2:21 - And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Just a few verses later, those who heard and believed that were cut to the heart asked, "What must we do" The reply:

Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 16:30-34 Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

Acts 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'

Rom 6:3-8 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

We are buried with Him in baptism into death...For one who has died has been set free from sin.

Notice the use of the words "we" and "us". Paul (Saul) did this as recorded in the book of Acts. Saul was baptized INTO Christ. In baptism, Saul was united with Christ in death and in so doing was "crucified" with Christ.

Then just a few verses later says (vs 17), "But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,

Notice, they were slaves of sin until they were obedient. Obedient to what? The Gospel. The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (I Cor 15). In the waters of baptism, we are buried and raised physically while spiritually we are united with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. We are baptized INTO Christ. The water and the blood flow together, just as it did from the crucified Savior's side (Jn 19:34).

Paul does not abandon this belief and teaching just a few chapters later. He does not contradict himself.

Rom 10:9-17, "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:


“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


Notice, belief and confession are unto salvation. Then he makes a statement, "But they have not all obeyed the gospel".

We have already seen how one obeys the gospel, ie, the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Rom 6:17 says we obey a form of that, and we do it in baptism (Rom 6:3-8)

Eph 2:1-10, "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

When were we dead, made alive-saved by grace- and raised up with Him?

Rom 6 lets us know that it is at baptism when this occurs. Harmonizing these two passages, the saving by grace occurs between the "death" and the "raising". That means it is during the burial in water.

We are not saved as a result of merit or any good thing we have done. Baptism is not meritorious. I don't deserve forgiveness of sins any more than Naaman deserved a cure from leprosy. I do nothing to earn salvation, thank God! No, it is by His grace and through my faith. Just as it can be said that through faith, the walls of Jericho fell (Heb 11:30) it can be said that through faith my sins were forgiven. The walls didn't fall down because of some mental assent. The city was a gift, given by God (Joshua 6:2). They received that gift through faith. Faith and baptism are not at odds with each other, but are in complete harmony.

It cannot be summed up any better than the inspired Paul told the Galatians, "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Some think that baptism and faith are at odds with one another. I have shown through scripture where they are in complete harmony with each other.

Any rebuttals consisting of nothing more than, "no, you are wrong", "that's just your intrepretation", "that's not what those scriptures really mean", or "I have a passage that doesn't mention baptism, therefore, baptism must not be necessary", is of no value to me.

I have yet to see anybody lay out a logical approach that harmonizes the faith and baptism passages, that actually uses scripture to shows that baptism is only for the saved and is symbolic of a prior salvation. That is an impossible task.

 

mman's Bible:

Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall not be saved unless they are baptized.

Try to interpret the Baptism as Spiritual Baptism, then you will find it exactly coincides with the passage.

By Spiritual Baptism as well, read Gal 2:20. How could Paul say that he was crucified with Christ? Wasn't he buried with Christ then?

You are making the Salvation much more difficult thant what Bible is saying above.

Notice! Believing is the first action of Obedience. By believing, you can be saved. After the salvation you can start to obey and the first action to do is the Baptism.

BR's Rhetoric

Read ac 8:37. If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest.=> If you don't believe with all your hear, you cannot be baptized.

I know you will say that Baptism is not a work but believing.
What about the circumcision? Read Ro 4. Paul treat it as a work. Baptism is simliar to Circumcision.

Listen the issue here is

1) not that Baptism is not important. Nobody denies that Baptism is the most important after the Salvation.

No one disagrees that Baptism is important.

2) The main issue is the timing of the Salvation.

When the believers are saved? You are claiming they are saved by the Baptism.
But the Bible says numerously that people are saved by believing, by faith.

You noticed Cornellius received the Holy Spirit before Water Baptism.

You denied that the believers who received are saved, didn't you"

So, you are claiming that the Believers who receieved the Holy Spirit go to the Hell, meaning that Holy Spirit will go to the Hell, right?

Bible says hundreds of times that everyone who believeth in Jesus is saved.

I showed you the Robber at the Cross. You miserably excused that he didn't get the Baptism because he belonged to OT period. Then why didn't Jesus say to Nicodemus that he could be born again without water because he belongs to OT times?
How can you guarantee that there was no believer who believed in Jesus but died before he or she was baptized, since the REsurrection of Jesus? Do they go to the Helll even though they believed in Jesus truly, because they had no chance to be baptized?

In the Iraqi war there may be soldiers who were dying and accepted Jesus, will they go to the Hell because they didn't get the Water Baptism?

YOur theology is based on human works, denying the fundamental truth of Salvation by Faith, by believing.

 

The way a person can "call on the name of the Lord" is by baptism.

If you read Acts 2:21, then Acts 2:38. That is clear.
If you read Acts 22:16, then that is clear.

There is but one baptism (Eph 4:5).
The book of Acts shows that preaching Jesus, or speaking the word of the Lord includes instructions for a baptism in water.

That what baptism is. An immersion. From Acts 8 and I Pet 3, we know that immersion is in water.

You always have to assume that words take on their common meaning unless something in the text demands otherwise.

THERE IS NOTHING IN THE TEXT TO SUGGEST THAT BAPTISM MEANS ANYTHING OTHER THAN IT COMMON MEANING - IMMERSION

In fact, spiritual baptism does not make sense in this text. One is not immersed into anything spiritually then raised out of that. That makes no sense whatsoever.

However, in a water baptism, one is immersed, buried, and raised out of the water. Now that makes sense. I know that does not fit your theological beliefs, but shouldn't scripture form your beliefs rather than to try and "shoe-horn" fit your beliefs into scripture.

Again, you are forcing baptism to mean something other than it's common meaning. There is nothing in the text to suggest otherwise.

There is but one baptism (Eph 4:5).
It is something man can do (Matt 28:18-20, Mark 16)
It is for all nations and all times (Matt 28:18-20, Mark 16:15-16)
It is commanded in a never ending fashion Matt 28:18-20
It is in water (Acts 8, I Pet 3:21)
It is the result of preaching Jesus (Acts 8:36-36)

Paul was crucified with Christ at baptism. From Rom 6 we can see that.

Rom 6:3-6, " Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

Therefore, at his baptism in water, he was baptized into Christ's death, united together in the likeness of His death, our old man was crucified with Him. That all takes place at baptism.

Hey, I am not making anything. I don't make the news, I just report it. I have shown you where believing alone does not save you. Of course it is the first thing we do. Everything subsequent is based on our belief.

According to Rom 6:4, when does the new life begin?

Notice Rom 6:17-18, " But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

When were they free from sin, before or after obedience?

Now back up to verse 7, "For he who has died has been freed from sin."

Again we have the idea of being freed from sin. When does this take place? At baptism, we are buried with Him through baptism into death. We die and are made free from the penalty of sin. When he says we are raised to walk in newness of life, we do have a new life. Raised from what? The waters of baptism.

 

You are confessing that

- You were not saved, you were destined to go to the Hell before Baptism.

- YOu are insisting that anyone who believe in Jesus Christ but have not been baptized will go to the Hell. In that case, believing in Jesus is USELESS. Faith is USELESS.

- Your baptizer baptized the Hell bound people, people going to the Hell arranged for the Satan and his angel.

I am confessing this:

- I was saved before Baptism because I believed in Jesus

- The people who believe in Jesus are saved, even though they are not baptized yet.

- my baptized baptized the true believer, the people who are going to the Heaven.

Ephesian 4:5

One Lord, ONE FAITH ( by Holy Spirit), One Baptism.

Read this:

Mt 20:22
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. 23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father

Wasn't Jesus already baptized?

Is Jesus talking about Water Baptism?

In any case, isn't Jesus use the word Baptism for other usage than only for the Water Baptism?

I showed you already all the verses which confirm that the timing of Salvation is the time of Believing, not the time of Baptism.

You are highly obssessed with Baptism !