Hebrews 4:12

Personification is the link. (BTW I'm not saying John was the author of Hebrews)

 

1. I have a lot of respect for Gill, but I think he is wrong here. I'm not alone: Leon Morris says,

"The word of God" means anything that God utters and particularly the word that came through Jesus Christ. He is called "the Word" in John 1:1, but that is not the thought here (though there have been exegetes who have taken this line). The comparison with a sharp sword and its penetration into human personality show that it is not the incarnate Word that is in mind."

2. If you think logos is referring to Jesus, then you'd go with Gill. :thumbs:

 

John is unequivocal. I cannot say the same for Heb 4:12.

 

I don't know who Leon Morris is but if you respect him, I'm sure he's worthy of it.

I used to take logos as Jesus every time it's used, but by God's grace I have grown out of that gross error. But it is Jesus in this case as far as I'm concerned (and my friend Gill). Let every man be fully persuaded. Tis nothing to break fellowship over, for sure.

 

1. Leon Morris was a noted NT scholar and commentator of the Reformed tradition. He along with Carson and Moo did the 1st edition of the Introduction to the New Testament. He passed last year.

2. I must inform you that that is the minority position on Heb 4:12.

 

Carson and Moo rings a bell, but for some reason Morris doesn't. Of course, I have a rusty bell. And I must inform you, brother, that I am no stranger to the minority position! :laugh:

 

I'm in the minority positon an often lot, but not on this one. :thumbs:

 

Logos fits for Jesus Christ as He is the communication link between God and man:

John 1

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.​

"declared" Him - this word is exegeomai from whence we get "exegesis". It is fitting because no man hath seen God at any time except the Son who comes forth from His (The Father's) very essence.
Therefore He is the only one who can intimately communicate God to man being a man (as well as God) Himself. Thus He is the eternal LOGOS made flesh.

 

Logos is also used in:

Matt 5:32
Matt 5:37
Matt 7:24
Matt 7:26
Matt 7:28
Matt 8:8
Matt 8:16
Matt 10:14
Matt 12:32
Matt 12:36, 37
Matt 13:19-23
Matt 15:6
Matt 15:12
Matt 15:23
Matt 18:23
Matt 19:1
Matt 19:11
Matt 19:22
Matt 21:24
Matt 22:15
Matt 22:46
Matt 24:35
Matt 25:19
Matt 26:1
Matt 26:44
Matt 28:15
Mark 1:45
Mark 2:2
Mark 4:14-20
Mark 4:33
Mark 5:36
Mark 7:13
Mark 7:29
Mark 8:32
Mark 8:38
Mark 9:10
Mark 10:22
Mark 10:24
Mark 11:29
Mark 12:13
Mark 13:31
Mark 14:39
Mark 16:20
Luke 1:2
Luke 1:4
Luke 1:20
Luke 1:29
Luke 3:4
Luke 4:22
Luke 4:32
Luke 4:36
Luke 5:1
Luke 5:15
Luke 6:47
Luke 7:7
Luke 7:17
Luke 8:11-13
Luke 8:15
Luke 8:21
Luke 9:26
Luke 9:28
Luke 9:44
Luke 10:39
Luke 11:28
Luke 12:10
Luke 16:2
Luke 20:3
Luke 20:20
Luke 21:33
Luke 23:9
Luke 24:17
Luke 24:19
Luke 24:44
John 1:1
John 1:14
John 2:22
John 4:37
John 4:39
John 4:41
John 4:50
John 5:24
John 5:38
John 6:60
John 7:36
John 7:40
John 8:31
John 8:37
John 8:43
John 8:51, 52
John 8:55
John 10:19
John 10:35
John 12:38
John 12:48
John 14:23, 24
John 15:3
John 15:20
John 15:25
John 17:6
John 17:14
John 17:17
John 17:20
John 18:9
John 18:32
John 19:8
John 19:13
John 21:23
Acts 1:1
Acts 2:22
Acts 2:40, 41
Acts 4:4
Acts 4:29
Acts 4:31
Acts 5:5
Acts 5:24
Acts 6:2
Acts 6:4, 5
Acts 6:7
Acts 7:22
Acts 7:29
Acts 8:4
Acts 8:14
Acts 8:21
Acts 8:25
Acts 10:29
Acts 10:36
Acts 10:44
Acts 11:1
Acts 11:19
Acts 11:22
Acts 12:24
Acts 13:5
Acts 13:7
Acts 13:15
Acts 13:26
Acts 13:44
Acts 13:46
Acts 13:48, 49
Acts 14:3
Acts 14:12
Acts 14:25
Acts 15:6, 7
Acts 15:15
Acts 15:24
Acts 15:27
Acts 15:32
Acts 15:35, 36
Acts 16:6
Acts 16:32
Acts 16:36
Acts 17:11
Acts 17:13
Acts 18:5
Acts 18:11
Acts 18:14, 15
Acts 19:10
Acts 19:20
Acts 19:38
Acts 19:40
Acts 20:2
Acts 20:7
Acts 20:24
Acts 20:32
Acts 20:35
Acts 20:38
Acts 22:22
Roma 3:4
Roma 9:6
Roma 9:9
Roma 9:28
Roma 13:9
Roma 14:12
Roma 15:18
1Cor 1:5
1Cor 1:17, 18
1Cor 2:1
1Cor 2:4
1Cor 2:13
1Cor 4:19, 20
1Cor 12:8
1Cor 14:9
1Cor 14:19
1Cor 14:36
1Cor 15:2
1Cor 15:54
2Cor 1:18
2Cor 2:17
2Cor 4:2
2Cor 5:19
2Cor 6:7
2Cor 8:7
2Cor 10:10, 11
2Cor 11:6
Gala 5:14
Gala 6:6
Eph 1:13
Eph 4:29
Eph 5:6
Eph 6:19
Phil 1:14
Phil 2:16
Phil 4:15
Phil 4:17
Colo 1:5
Colo 1:25
Colo 2:23
Colo 3:16, 17
Colo 4:3
Colo 4:6
1The 1:5, 6
1The 1:8
1The 2:5
1The 2:13
1The 4:15
1The 4:18
2The 2:2
2The 2:15
2The 2:17
2The 3:14
1Tim 1:15
1Tim 3:1
1Tim 4:5, 6
1Tim 4:9
1Tim 4:12
1Tim 5:17
1Tim 6:3
2Tim 1:13
2Tim 2:9
2Tim 2:11
2Tim 2:15
2Tim 2:17
2Tim 4:2
2Tim 4:15
Titu 1:3
Titu 1:9
Titu 2:5
Titu 2:8
Titu 3:8
Hebr 2:2
Hebr 4:2
Hebr 4:12, 13
Hebr 5:11
Hebr 5:13
Hebr 6:1
Hebr 7:28
Hebr 12:19
Hebr 13:7
Hebr 13:17
Hebr 13:22
Jame 1:18
Jame 1:21-23
Jame 3:2
1Pet 1:23
1Pet 2:8
1Pet 3:1
1Pet 3:15
1Pet 4:5
2Pet 1:19
2Pet 2:3
2Pet 3:5
2Pet 3:7
1Joh 1:1
1Joh 1:10
1Joh 2:5
1Joh 2:7
1Joh 2:14
1Joh 3:18
3Joh 1:10
Reve 1:2, 3
Reve 1:9
Reve 3:8
Reve 3:10
Reve 6:9
Reve 12:11
Reve 17:17
Reve 19:9
Reve 19:13
Reve 20:4
Reve 21:5
Reve 22:6, 7
Reve 22:9, 10
Reve 22:18, 19

 

I've just read through this thread and thought I'd add my two yen, since no one has said what I'm going to say.

First of all, I agree with TCGreek about the context in Heb. 4. The OT was quoted four times in ch. 4 before we get to v. 12, so the Jewish reader is already thinking "word of God" in its OT usage by then. However, in the writings of John where the term clearly refers to Christ, you only have one OT quote in John 1, and that is not until v. 23, and in 1 John 1 Rev. 19 you have no OT quotes.

The phrase "word of God" appears 48 times in the Bible. Five of those times are in the OT, and each of those times it clearly means the written Word of God. Therefore according to OT usage the standard meaning of the phrase is the written Word of God as opposed to the living Word of God, our Savior.

Now with that in mind, it has to be clear in the NT when the phrase refers to Christ, and it is not clear in Hebrews 4. In fact, the phrase occurs four times in Hebrews, and in none of those references can it be proven that the living Word is in mind. The only places in the entire NT where it is obvious that the living Word is meant are in the writings of the Apostle John. Therefore we should conclude that this is specifically a Johanine expression.

Quite often the Bible writers had their own specific phrases, and that points up the fact that God used the personalities of the authors of Scripture and didn't override them. So for example Matthew uses "kingdom of Heaven" instead of "kingdom of God," and Luke has many medical terms in his writings. Just so, John, being the "disciple Jesus loved," understood better than other writers how Christ was the living Word of God.

 

1. Is yen still the strongest? Maybe your comments my give the answer. :laugh:

2. That is what I saw too. It is quite clear what the Hebrew writing is trying to accomplish.

3. Good interpretation of the stats.

4. John is clearly referring to the preincarnate Christ.

5. And we need to be sensitive to these features if we are going to come away with what the Holy Spirit has prepared for us.

Good stuff, John. :thumbs:

 

Ouch. The yen is too strong, so we don't get the bang for our buck that we used to!

Yes, in John 1, but in 1 John 1 and Rev. 19 it is the incarnate Christ. Of course that doesn't affect our position on Heb. 4:12.

Thankee kindly. :wavey:

 

A good analysis JoJ but also keep in mind that the understanding of the words or content of what is being said by the human author is not necessarily a prerequisite on the part of that human oracle.

John 11

49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.​

HankD

 

This is true. But without more evidence in the immediate context of Heb. 4:12 to say the Word is Christ there, or in the larger context of the book of Hebrews to say this was a usage typical of the author, I'll have to stick with the Scriptures as the Word in this passage. Again, in the even larger context of the NT it has already been pointed out that we have Paul calling the Bible a sword in Eph. 6, and then we also have Christ with a sword coming out of His mouth in Rev. 19. So the context from its narrowest to its widest extent favors the Word in Heb. 4:12 as being the Scriptures.

 

There is some evidence. Jesus Christ IMO is the contextual center of Chapter 4 as our "great high priest".

Hebrews

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.​

In verse 12 we are told that the Word of God is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. At very least the Word in this verse is given the ability of discernment an ability which requires a mind.​

In verse 13 the autou refering back to the Logos is given the English personal pronoun of "Him" in every translation I have seen. ​

Also all things are "naked and open to His sight". At very least here the "Word" is fully identified with the person of Christ.​

In verse 14 it cannot be proven that the Logos of verse 12 and our "great high priest", "Jesus the Son of God" are not one and the same unless this verse refers back to Hebrews 3:1 which seems unliky to me.​

It would seem to me that it refers back to the Logos of verse 4:12-13.​

Jesus as the discerner of our thoughts which is sharper than any two-edged sword:​

John 4
15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.​

Matthew 19
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.​

Etc...​

HankD​

 

No, it can be personification.

I see no grammatical reason why the autou cannot be referring to God in v. 12 instead of the sword. The idiom enwpion autou or enwpion tou theou, "before Him" or "before God" is very common in the NT. But it virtually always refers to simply "God," and never as far as I can find directly to God the Son, as in "before Christ."​

I see a subject change in the discourse here.​

Very true.​

You make a good case with this post, but I think I'll stick to my guns on 4:12.​

God bless.​

 

True, but it may be the one place, although you may want to take a look at Revelation 4:10.​

Thank you John and to you and yours as well.

In any case, we can all rejoice in this usage of Logos in John 1:14 especially at this time of the year:​

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...​

HankD​

​

 

Why see the forest for the trees? The Bible is crystal-clear that Jesus is the Word. Logos-schmogos. We don't speak that language any more. Can we believe God's word in English?

 

Just because you don't comprehend Greek doesn't mean that I don't. And what makes you think I don't believe God's word in English?

 

I know a little Greek as well, my friend. I just won't let the dictionary writer's interpretation skew my veiw of what the Bible says in my language. I did not say that you don't believe the Bible in English. There are certainly some who have posted who do not beleive there is a perfect Bible for English-speaking people. Otherwise this post would not exist.

Why should two English Christians debate doctrine in Greek? There is no sense in that.