Bread Worship

Your answer is very flippant and hardly worth an answer when you show no respect or reverence for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the King of kings and Lord of Lords--who so loved the world that he came and died for it. Your charge is "that he ripped people off." I would call that blasphemy. And I will just stop there.

 

Funny, I never said he ripped anybody off. Merely asked if that was what you were saying. In fact, I believe that pagans have ripped off God.

 

Lori4dogs,

Do you believe the moonies, Hari Krishnas, Scientologists, and other cultists who say to outsiders..."oh, you just dont understand what we *really* believe, and what our group is *really* about"?

Actually, it is those like myself who DO have an understanding of what is going on in the Catholic Church. In adition to being born and raised as a Catholic, I have spent much time in the Catholic Encyclopedia, the Catholic Catechism, The Council of Trent teachings, the official Catholic Church website, watching the priests and Catholic apologists teach on EWTN, etc etc etc.

They are among the most cunningly decepetive decievers I've ever seen.

Yes they do. She is referred to as the "Queen of Heaven" and the "Queen of the Universe". She is viewed as being omnipresent. Pope John Paul II prayed to her and entrusted the enter world into her care, and entreater her to save all the lost. Their are sites in various parts of the world where demons have masquaraded as Mary. Catholics by the millions travel the world to those sites to worship Mary, hoping they might be granted a vision or apparation from the goddess Mary.

In many countries across the world statues of Mary are "high and lifted up" and paraded through the streets of the city, as thousands of people are in rapturous extacy as they engage in their goddess worship.

I know what the Catholic apologists say. The decievers of the Catholic church have decided that they can decieve people more if they tell them "Why, we dont *worship* Mary, we *venerate*(wink) her". They say..."See? Its a completly different word!"

Just calling it by a different name. Could your children get away with that, Lori? How many times have kids...when caught stealing something...shuffle their feet nervously and say "Oh, I didnt steal it...I borrowed it! See?"

You can not wiggle out of something, by just calling it a different name, Lori. If I shot and killed one of your dogs, and you confronted me, would you be OK with me saying "Oh, I didnt kill your dog, Lori. I "blifted" it. See? Its a completly different word!"

How would that fly?

The Catholic Church has spent the better part of the last 1700 years carefully cultivating Goddess Worship, and turning her victims into Goddess worshippers.

As I noted above, I have been doing that for a long long time. The more I check out Catholic aplogetics, the more clear their idolatries and blasphemies become.

Be very careful, Lori. Be very very careful. They have had 1700 years to perfect the deception. And btw...just because I'm saying these things in such a straightforward manner doesnt mean I'm implying that they deliberatly gather and plot to decieve.

THEY are decieved. And they have become very good at propagating the deceptions.



None of this pleases me. It grieves me in my heart and I wish it were not so.

But it is.

Sadly,

Mike

 

Actually Justin Martyr demonstrates quite well (written over 100 years before Constantine is even born) that the pagan practice is a copy cat of the Christian Eucharist. Interestingly enough, his "Apology" was written in defense of Christianity, which was being charged with 'cannibalism' among other things.

"And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn."

 

D28Guy

Hello Mike:

Thanks for responding to my post. Although we have gotten a bit off topic on the subject of the Eucharist, I hope that we can discuss these issues over time.

Just as I did not start out believing in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist I also saw things regarding the Roman Church as you presently do. I now know a lot of Catholics in my area and believe them to be truly born again. Where I live the Catholic Churches are deeply committed to evangelization. Several of my friends were saved in Catholic Churches. I am sorry that your experiences in that church have been so negative.

You might want to give some thought about what you accuse that church regarding "worshipping Mary". It is very presumptious to say that they don't really mean 'veneration' when they say they do. The church has bent over backwards in its catechism to instruct people in the difference between veneration and worship (adoration).

I also take issue with what you call 'vain repetition' of prayers in praying the rosary. Repetitious prayers are not the issue but ones recited vainly. I will leave that judgement to God as only He knows the heart of the person praying. The rosary is a form of contemplative prayers. I never even had a clue what that was as a Baptist.

As I said, we are definately off the topic here but I look forward to discussions with you regarding teachings of the RC that you find so offensive. Thanks for the time you took in responding to my post.

 

You, and many others, have claimed that there is definitive evidence that the Church Fathers all agreed regarding the Lord's Supper. This simply isn't true. Check out this excerpt from a website intended for Catholics curious about becoming evangelicals:

The last sentence in the quote is very instructive for the purposes of this thread.

In other words, to denigrate the metaphor position by stating that it didn't start until Zwingli is wrong. It has been around for a very long time, and it finds some support from very import early theologians, such as Tertullian and Augustine.

 

Hi cowboymatt. I don't have time to research all of these by any means, but I did take a quick look at the two by Augustine.

Regarding the reference to Psalm 3, in context this is not a disseration on Augustine's belief in the Eucharist, but merely a quick reference in which he uses the term 'figure' while discussing something else.

Regarding the first in the confessions, it appears that Augustine does indeed take John 6 to mean figuratively.

However, there is an abundance of evidence that he did not believe "This is my body" to be taken figuratively at all. There are many quotes that support his belief in the real presence in the Eucharist. So read in the context of his works, concluding that Augustine supported the idea that the bread and wine are mere symbols would be incorrect.

 

Said,
"That church does not, nor ever has taught people to worship Mary."

Go to Spain or Portugal, and tell those people this. Just make sure you have planned an escape route, or you will be dead.

 

Someone said this thread has gone off topic. Topics like this one should inevitably go 'off topic', simply because it is not even discussable from the Bible and the Bible only; other authorities are in charge in cases like this. Then, as far as I am concerned, the discussion is born still. Much the better for it! But think people would accept? no; they go off-topic to keep it alive artificially - with cunningness, that is.

 

Please explain exactly how Constantine 'founded' the Roman Catholic Church, using unbiased contemporary source documents ie: not whackos like Jack Chick.

PS No Greek MS of the Johannine comma exists prior to the 16th century, so you're wrong about that too. The first Latin version of the comma is found in the Bible produced by that arch-Catholic, Jerome, the Vulgate.

Do try us with some facts in instead of leftfield opinions...

 

If anyone claim that the Bread is turned to be Flesh, he or she must be believing like these Jews:

John 2
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

 

Cowboymatt, the person who posted those quotes didn't do their homework. Augustine's use of sign is very specific, he goes into great detail in defining his meaning in his work on Christian Doctrine, you can check it out at www.ccel.org. Usually, when Augustine is talking about signs and figures, he is talking about words, or as he says things which conjure up ideas in our minds of which the cheif is words which is our major concern for that is what Holy Scripture is made up of. I suspect somebody did a word search or saw this quote and didn't think that maybe he wasn't a closet baptist and meant something other than contemporary usage.

 

So you are saying the Catholic Church in Spain and Portugal teaches that people should worship Mary? If you are going to make this claim then you should be able to provide evidence. Can you?

 

What always amazes me is the way these people spiritualize the Bible everywhere else and criticized fundamentalists for literalism and then literalize various texts that are obviously to be taken figuratively, spiritually, or metaphorically.

Satan is a great deceiver. Some people sure make his work easy. In fact, they seem to help him deceive themselves.
:tear: raying:

 

New Flash: There is no "Christian Eucharist," only a pagan one. The RCC "eucharist" is pagan. We celebrate the Lord's Table with bread and wine (grape juice to be precise--but we will leave that for another discussion).
The bread is symbolic of the body of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The wine is symbolic of the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.
That doesn't change no matter what others say.

The word "Eucharist" as used by the RCC is not in the Bible. There is a Greek word similar to Eucharist in the Greek. But it in no way resembles any part of a Communion Service or the Lord's Table. I will summarize some of it for you.

1. eucharistos is used only once (Col.3:15), translated as "thankful."

2. eucharistew is used 39 times.
12 times it is translated as "thank."
1 time is it is translated as "be thankful."
26 times it is translated as "give thanks."

3. eucharistia is used 15 times.
9 times it is translated as "thanskgiving."
3 times it is translated as "giving of thanks (incl 1Cor.14:16)
2 times it is translated as "thanks."
1 time it is translated as "thanfulness."

To get the RCC concept of "the Eucharist" out of the Greek word "eucharistos" is absurd. It isn't in the Bible. Thus Justin Martyr doesn't prove a thing does he? There is no Eucharist in the Bible, only "giving of thanks" and being thankful. Those are great concepts but they have nothing to do with the unsciptural concept of transubstantiation.

 

The term eucharist in reference to Holy Communion originated from the eucharistic prayer (Prayer of THanksgiving) given just prior to the words of institution. It eventually overtime was used to synonymously with communion. Some Lutheran liturgies retain a version of this prayer in their communion services.

 

I understand that your views of this are that the belief in the real presence is pagan. However, I was responding to your comment that:

Originally Posted by DHK
That is the contradiction. When the RCC came into existence in the fourth century during the time of Constantine so did idolatry. You have just demonstrated that transubstantiation is a copy cat pagan practice. It was never practiced in the NT, or by early believers. It was always symbolic in nature. It is metaphorical in nature just like Jesus saying, "I am the door." But when the RCC let paganism into the Church, then Christianity, so-called, became paganized.
And thus your form of pagan transubstantiation.

So while you may believe this is indeed pagan, you cannot also assert that this came into being in the fourth century with Constantine. The references of the majority of the early believers are clear they took it literally, as was noted by the quote on the first page of this thread by Ignatius of Antioch and the one I provided from Justin Martyr. So from your perspective, the early believers who were being martyred for Christ were pagans already, and fell into paganism immediately upon the death of the apostles.

 

You may be right and I, frankly, don't have the time to check it all out.

The point, though, is that it is not correct to say all the church fathers agreed about this or about almost anything (other than the Trinity and the efficacy of Jesus' death). There was a difference of opinion.

 

Lori4dogs,

I agree that there are some Catholics who are born of the Spirit and are in Christ. However, its very difficult to be born again while in the Catholic Church due to Gods gospel of pure grace, through faith alone, has been replaced with a false gospel of works. But there are indeed *some* saved people in the CC.

But if they are in lock step with Rome they are ingaging in evangelism using a false gospel that can not save.

God still works miracles.

I didnt consider my experience growing up Catholic to be negative UNTIL I heard the true gospel, embraced Christ, and was born again. After that, I simply couldnt understand why NOBODY in the Catholic Church ever TOLD ME ABOUT THE GOSPEL!!

I now know why. They vigorously condemn the true gospel as being false, while propagating a false gospel as if it were true..

Lori, the Catholic Church plays this little word game...(we dont WORSHIP Mary, we VENERATE *wink* her) regarding their idolatrous worship of Mary. These are just little word games, and nothing more. They can call it "veneration" until they are blue in the face, and it will still be worship.

As I said earlier in my earlier post, if I shot and killed one of your dogs, and then told you: "I didnt KILL your dog, Lori. I *clopped * it. See? I didnt kill it at all. Thats a completly different word!"

Would that make your dog any less dead?

One doesnt engage in worship when they decide to CALL it worship, Lori. They engage in worship when the worship takes place. And when Catholics bow to statues of Mary, expect miracles from her, pray to her, consider her to be omnipresent, call her the "Queen of the Universe", the "Queen of Heaven", take pilgrimages to sites all around the world to hope for a visitation or apperition from their "Queen", have city wide clebrations as the worhipers are in rapturous extacy as they carry their molded image of Mary "high and lifted up"...THAT....IS....WORSHP. I couldnt care less what the Catholic Church *calls* it. What they call it is 100% irrelavent.

The problem with the rosary is that the primary focus is MARY, as opposed to GOD. I believe the ratio is something like 10 or 15 vain repititions of the "Hail Mary" to every 1 vain repetition to God.(the Our Father)

If Mary is not treated as a goddess, what are they doing praying 10-15 prayers directed to MARY, to every 1 prayed to God???


God bless,

Mike

 

Oh I see: so Ignatius and Justin were pagans, then? So these pagans were dragged to their martyrdoms for their pagan beliefs by other pagans, were they? I guess Christ was wrong when he said "a house divided against itself cannot stand", was he?