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Bread Worship

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by antiaging, Jan 21, 2008.

  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You just parrotted what mrtummus just said. I simply defined words. You are the ones drawing conclusions; not me. I didn't judge their salvation; you did. If that is what you think of them; then so be it.
    As you observed from my work above, the modern day meaning of the word "The Eucharist" is not found in our English Bible (KJV), nor is it found in the Greek NT in the context that you are looking for. The Greek word is found, but only in the context of giving of thanks or thankfulness. I am not even certain that these authors (ECF) that you quote are quoted accurately. Remember you are quoting another translation. Let me emphasize the English word "The Eucharist" did not even exist at their time as the English language itself did not exist during that time. How can you even be sure that what you are reading is actually what was said, let alone accurately translated?

    As for me, I know that what I hold in my hands is the Word of God. We have over 5,000 extant MSS attesting to its veracity. How many do we have of Justin Martyr's writings?
    I would rather stick to the writings of an infallible God, rather than the writings of a fallible man. The ECF, and their writings don't hold much value to me. They contradict each other, are not in agreement with each other, and in fact, adhere to heresies that today would not be tolerated.
     
  2. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz New Member

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    For a person who refuses to read the Early Church Father's works that is quite the statement.
     
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I don't read them extensively. But I have read enough of them to know what they believe.
     
  4. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Oh come on,you know exactly what I meant: you were suggesting that the term 'eucharist', which is a Greek word used by both Justin and Ignatius amongst other ECFs, was a 'pagan' word. That implies that you believe that Justin and Ignatius were pagans. I was simply highlighting how ridiculous that belief is.
     
  5. lori4dogs

    lori4dogs New Member

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    D28guy said: "The problem with the rosary is that the primary focus is MARY, as opposed to GOD. I believe the ratio is something like 10 or 15 vain repititions of the "Hail Mary" to every 1 vain repetition to God.(the Our Father)

    If Mary is not treated as a goddess, what are they doing praying 10-15 prayers directed to MARY, to every 1 prayed to God???"

    Actually, the primary focus of the rosary is Jesus! The rosary is prayed 'contempletively' and not in a way that most protestants know or understand. For example, the 'mysteries' to be meditated upon in the 'sorrowful' mysteries each involve the death and resurrection of our Lord. I know some people who do not recite the Hail Mary while saying the rosary but use what is know as the 'Jesus Prayer' which is "Jesus, Son of God, have mercy upon me as sinner". Again, it is a meditation on our Lord. BTW, most of the Hail Mary is derived directly from Holy Scripture.

    Also, I see nothing wrong with giving the Blessed Virgin the honor due her. She is indeed the Mother of God (Theotokos) and Lukes gospel delclares that "from henceforth, all generations shall call me blessed".

    Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans and others have long recognized that the Virgin Mary indeed is deserving of honor. She said, "be it done unto me according to your word" which is the kind of response to God I want to give.

    The teaching of the Roman Catholic Church is contrary to what you say it is about treating Mary as a goddess. The Catholic Catechism which is the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church flaty contradicts your claim.

    Thanks for responding
     
  6. cowboymatt

    cowboymatt New Member

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    Isn't the Hail Mary a prayer asking Mary to pray for the one praying?
     
  7. lori4dogs

    lori4dogs New Member

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    Cowboymatt"

    You are correct, but again you must understand that the rosary is a meditation. A person recites twelve prayers that for a decade of the rosary. I meditate on the mystery (such as Jesus brought before Pilate) associated with that decade. If I merely recite the Hail Mary, out loud or silently, I'm missing the focus of the rosary. It is not 'vain repetition' of prayers, but a meditation on God's grace. I do understand why many protestants might view reciting the rosary as useless and meaningless. If the rosary become mere formula, then I agree that it would become the meaningless repetition that Jesus forbids in Matthew 6:7

    Look at Psalm 136. It is a litany meant to be sung in the temple with a recurring refrain of 'His mercy endures forever'. Sometimes in the Psalm the refrain begins before the sentence is finished which would make it more repetitious than the rosary although this Psalm was written under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
     
  8. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen."

    Yep - 6 years of Catholic school - still can do it from memory.
     
  9. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    If you are "meditating" on Jesus, then why are you saying words that are very different than anything about Jesus and what you're meditating on? That just makes it vain repetitions because you're not even thinking of what you're saying!
     
  10. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Meditation - at least the Christian variety - happens on a number of levels. For example, you can be saying one set of words on a particular subject whilst thinking about a different subject
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    These are your conclusions not mine, and quite frankly I don't know how you come up with them. Let's look point by point at what I said.
    1. Justin and Ignatius used the term "Eucharist" as you (the RCC, et. al.) do today, or so you suppose.
    2. The English language wasn't even invented at that period of time and they wrote in Greek, so isn't it possible that your suppositions and even your translational work is wrong.
    3. The Greek word, as demonstrated above, is never once translated "The Eucharist," in the way that you use it or want it to be used. It is always used in the sense of thankfulness or in giving of thanks. It has nothing to do with a Communion Service--ever.

    Now, you falsely conclude that I am accusing Justin and Ignatius as heretics. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I rather charge you with corrupting what Justin and Ignatius have actually said, with having corrupt translations, unreliable translations, and reading into words meanings that are not there. There is no possible way that a person can get "The Eucharist" as in today's meaning of it, our of the Greek word eucharisto or eucharistew. It is impossible. I have not attacked the ECF in this manner but rather your interpretation of them.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    "Mary is all powerful with her divine Son who grants all graces to mankind through her" - Pope Benedict XV, Fausto Appetente Die

    "All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God." - Alphonsus de Liguori, Roman Catholic Cardinal and "saint", from his book The Glories of Mary

    Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; The Glories of Mary. (pp 180-181)

    "She is omnipotent, because by her prayers she obtains whatever SHE wills. (The Glories of Mary pp 182)

    "With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to [bvenerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God[/b], conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because,
    while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race." - Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus

    "Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
    sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of our people." – Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This does not tell us where it is written -- what letter? What book?

    It is just a "Claim" that Ignatius did it - and he is "supposed to be infallible"?


    More to the point --


    RC Eucharist is “idolatry” (if non-Catholics are right) according to the RCC.

    The Faith Explained – A bestselling RC commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II by Leo J. Trese is promoted as “A standard reference for every Catholic home and library”. Complete with Papal Imprimatur -- Quote from page 350-351
    Parenthetical inserts “mine”



    How SERIOUS do they take this worship of bread “as though it were a god”??
     
  14. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

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    Lori,

    You said...

    No, its not. I was raised Catholic, and went through 8 years of Parochial school. And part of our training was regularly going over to the church next door to the school and doing the rosary ritual.

    The prayers directed to Mary out number the prayers directed to God 10-15 to 1. Yes, we would briefly acknowledge different aspects of Christ "passion"...but then turn right around and start our vain repetitons of prayers offered to Mary, not God.

    Why would you want to beg Jesus to have mercy on you? Jesus had mercy on us, and saved us, and caused us to be secured for heaven 2000 years ago when our sins were placed on Him and He took our death penalty?.

    No...the prayers to Mary out number the prayers to God by a huge, HUGE amount.

    Do they include the scripture that says "You shall have no other Gods before me"? (and obviously that includes "Goddesses") Or the scriptures that teach us that there ia ONE mediator and intercessor between God and man...the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Neither do we. She was very blessed to be used of God to bring Christ into the world.

    She was the *earthly*, and *surrogote* mother of Jesus Christ. But the Title "Mother of God" is blasphemous. That has been proven over and over again on other threads here on BB. God created Mary, so Mary has no buisiness having the title, "Mother of God". The motivation for the Title "Mother of God" is completly different that what you think, or what the Catholic Church tells people.

    Her name was Mary. There is no justification for any special "Title". All that does is "lift her up" inordinately.

    And we evangelicals have been calling her blessed for 2000 years now. I wish the Catholic Church and other like minded groups would cease their goddess worship and join us in simply acknowledging that she was blessed.


    Well, are you a follower of Mary, or Jesus? We have abundant evidence in Gods scriptures that we are to have a submissive attitude regarding Gods will in our lives, without bringing Mary into it in the least bit.

    They've got you "hook, line, and sinker" Lori, as the old saying goes...unfortunetly.

    No it doesnt. It confirms it.

    Here is an excerpt from the Catholic Catechism

    Everything I've bolded is blasphemous and idolatrous, and serves to strongly perpetuate Goddess Worship...


    Very sadly,

    Mike
     
    #134 D28guy, Jan 31, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2008
  15. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, Chapters 6 & 7. No, I don't think anyone would say Ignatius is infallible but living at the time he did, he would have to have better understanding of the teachings of Christ and His apostles than we can have 2,000 years later.
     
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    GE
    You should have a better understanding of the Scriptures than Ignatius had, for several compelling reasons that should be obvious to yourself. Fewer years away from the time of Christ doesn't bring you one bit nearer to Him or the truth about Him. If you reason like this, Justin should be almost as close to Christ's truth as Ignatius had been, yet I find the case the opposite.
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Justin is not only about 20 years further from truth; he is 20 centuries further away than Ignatius.
     
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    But yes, then there's that question about all the pseudo-Ignatiuses
     
  19. cowboymatt

    cowboymatt New Member

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    The Letter to the Smyrneans is authentic by all accounts.
     
  20. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    And what exactly gives you the authority to say that your interpretation of Scripture is better than Justin's?
     
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