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Wine vs. Grapejuice @ Communion

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by JerryL, Apr 26, 2008.

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  1. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Oh, you are back!

    Welcome back SFIC and Linda64.
     
  2. Joe

    Joe New Member

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    Eeeeww!!!

    That's funny :applause: :laugh:

    I had to read your words twice before I understood what you were referring to!
     
  3. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Then I have to agree here with standingfirminChrist who asks, 'why post this in a "debate" thread'? if (A.) you already "know EVERYONE'S opinion on that" as to "whether wine use is wrong", and (B.) you are not trying to debate it. Incidentally, what is my opinion on this subject, since you claim to know it? Some of those less astute than you, mught be interested in finding out. And since some of "the usual suspects" were already starting to congregate "right on cue" by the time I opened and posted in this thread (Post #7) I did not offer my opinion to be overlooked in the midst of the same old arguments, from the same posters, yet once again.
    Could be, but this is certainly not clearly stated in the OP, and unlike some, I make no claim as to being able to read minds.

    I also detest the pdf format, and so do not read anything in pdf, unless I deem it absolutely necessary. This did not qualify.

    Ed
     
    #43 EdSutton, Apr 26, 2008
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  4. JerryL

    JerryL New Member

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    I posted it in the General thread because it doesn't belong in the Theology thread. All threads in the general thread don't have to be about debate. The heading at the top says "General Baptist Discussions"
    Seems I did address it. If you don't have any insight or haven't read the article, why do you keep posting here if this thread bothers you so much? It's been going smooth so far. Some questions were answered and everyone is acting good, why do you try to get things stirred up?
     
    #44 JerryL, Apr 26, 2008
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  5. Joe

    Joe New Member

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    I underlined a sentence in your Op above. It's pretty clear what we are debating, and the focus is not whether alcohol is sinful. Thanks for the direction Jerry, maybe that is why this thread is going so smoothly :)
    An alcohol thread where people are actually joking around.

    Good job everyone
     
    #45 Joe, Apr 27, 2008
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  6. JerryL

    JerryL New Member

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    Thanks Joe. My honest question of whether it was wrong to use grapejuice is why I ended up searching and finding that article. A couple of people here have eased my concern of using grapejuice in communion, answering that, "todays grapejuice is pasterized and free of impurities", like Christ. The article furthered my inqisitiveness of when this change came about in America and if other countries do as we do. I never intended a debate on the rights and wrongs of it. I heard a pastor preach a sermon along the same lines as the article about 2 years ago and ever since then, as I said in my first post, I got the "willys" everytime I did communion with juice. I think I can do Communion with juice and be at ease now.
     
    #46 JerryL, Apr 27, 2008
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  7. Beth

    Beth New Member

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    Conscience


    Grape juice should be used at the Lord's Table because there are Christians who have been alchoholics. Others have other conscience issues regarding wine, and there is no need to cause such to stumble.

    The Disciples did drink wine, and the point in Scripture is to avoid drunkenness, not wine.

    Your sister in Christ,
    Beth
     
  8. standingfirminChrist

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    The wine the Disciple's drank was new wine (gleukos). It was a sweet wine and was non-alcoholic in content.
     
  9. JerryL

    JerryL New Member

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    I'm not so sure gleukos was non-alcoholic.

    1098. gleukos (glyoo'-kos)

    akin to glukus; sweet wine, i.e. (properly) must (fresh juice), but used of the more saccharine (and therefore highly inebriating) fermented wine

    new wine.

    see GREEK glukus

    Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
    Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
    Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. (9am)

    The people thought they were drunk with new wine but Peter explained that it was too early in the morning for that. Not that new wine wouldn't get them drunk.
     
    #49 JerryL, Apr 27, 2008
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  10. standingfirminChrist

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    Barnes - New wine. gleukos. This word properly means the juice of the grape which distils before a pressure is applied, and called must. It was sweet wine; and hence the word in Greek meaning sweet was given to it. The ancients, it is said, had the art of preserving their new wine with the peculiar flavour before fermentation for a considerable time, and were in the habit of drinking it in the morning.
     
  11. JerryL

    JerryL New Member

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    New wine had to be alcoholic. When Jesus referenced putting new wine in old wineskins,(Mat 9:17, Mark 2:22, Luke 5:37) the fermentation process would cause gas buildup, which would cause an old wineskin to burst. New wine had to be put into new wineskins(Luke 5:38), which were stronger, so it could withstand the pressure buildup of the process. But, after drinking the "old" aged wine, nobody would want the new anyway.(Luke 5:39) The old is better. Both are alcoholic. Grapes start to ferment immediately after the grapes are crushed, that's why the old skins wouldn't stand the pressure. God put the yeast on the grapes, unlike most other fruits which start rotting immediately, it has to be His plan to produce wine from them.
     
    #51 JerryL, Apr 27, 2008
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  12. standingfirminChrist

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    Jesus' parable of the wine and wineskins was a lesson showing that legalism and grace could not be mixed. The Pharisees had to change their ways in order to completely understand Christ's message.

    To automatically take the view that new wine was put in new skins in to allow the fermentation process to happen is a narrow minded view because sweet unfermented wine was also kept in wineskins according to the passage.

    The context of the parable provides a strong argument for the preservation and use of unfermented wine.

    It is obvious from the parable that the new wine in the bottles was unfermented. If it was already fermented, there would be no significant change in the wine to cause the skins to burst. If the intention was to make fermented wine, then the wine would have been allowed to ferment before sealing the skins. In allowing the fermenting before sealing the skins, there would be no need to worry about the skins breaking
    .
    In light of the passage, the intention had to be to keep the new unfermented wine in the skin from fermenting ensuring the skins would not break.

    New skins were preferred because new skins did not contain old fermentation matter in them.

    Had new wine been used in old skins, the old yeast matters left behind would have begun a fermentation process in the new wine (a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump).

    Dr William Patton, in his book Bible Wines:
    He continued with this information:
    In the book Anti-Bacchus: An Essay on the Crimes, Diseases, and other Evils connected with the use of Intoxicating Drinks, Rev. B Parsons stated:
    Jesus was not likening His kingdom of grace to ultimate fermentation, since this is fundamentally a decay process. His Word must remain uncorrupted and uncontaminated. If Christ's teachings of grace were to be put in old bottles, i.e., mixed with Pharisaic legalism, they would eventually ferment, or, be perverted causing utter confusion.

    Leighton G Campbell states in his book Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence:

     
  13. JerryL

    JerryL New Member

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    I don't know these guys. Are they related to you? Have they written anything about why communion was changed from wine to grapejuice in the 1800's? I think my questions about the subject of the thread have been answered though. Thanks for the additional info.
     
  14. standingfirminChrist

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    Welch's supposed discovery on how to keep grape juice from turning alcoholic was not new. Welch's supposed discovery was in 1869. Rev B Parson's wrote his book in 1840 and clearly shows in his book the processes one would use to keep grape juice from turning to wine.

    Welch just used more modern technology to bring about the same process that was used back in the first century AD.
     
  15. JerryL

    JerryL New Member

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    It seems this guy was the "granddaddy" of the switchover.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_C._Delevan

    http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/albany/bios/d/ecdelavananb.html
     
    #55 JerryL, Apr 27, 2008
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  16. standingfirminChrist

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    To show the foolishness of the thought of communion wine being alcoholic in content one need only look at Scripture. Priests were forbidden to drink wine in the tabernacle.

    This was speaking of alcoholic wine.

    Since priests are not supposed to drink wine as Scripture declares, then priests would be forbidden to participate in communion.

    The only way wine would be accepted in the Communion would be if it were non alcoholic in content as it was at the first. Jesus took the cup which contained the fruit of the vine and gave it all to His Disciples and said 'Drink ye all of it.'

    Communion wine was never meant to be alcoholic in content.
     
  17. Palatka51

    Palatka51 New Member

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    Amen Brother, amen. :thumbs:
     
  18. JerryL

    JerryL New Member

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    Priests didn't participate in communion. Jesus instituted the first communion and it wasn't for the priests, it was for His followers. Priests weren't invited, unless, they dropped judism and folled Him.
     
    #58 JerryL, Apr 27, 2008
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  19. Palatka51

    Palatka51 New Member

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    Isaiah 28:7
    7But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
     
  20. JerryL

    JerryL New Member

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    The first thing we have to grasp is that Jesus IS God. He made everything. He made the yeast on the wineskins for a purpose, to make wine. He is the same God that is talked about in Psalms 104.
    The whole chapter talks about God and the things he made. God/Jesus, the same.

    Psa 104:15 And wine(yayin (yah'-yin) which makes man's heart glad, So that he may make his face glisten with oil, And food which sustains man's heart.

    3196. yayin (yah'-yin)
    From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication, intoxication -- banqueting, wine, wine(-bibber).

    Jdg 9:13 And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?

    A rhetorical question begging the answer of no.

    This is God/Jesus, one and the same. There are tons of Scripture that says wine is good. There are Scriptures that say the ABUSE of wine is bad, not the wine itself.
     
    #60 JerryL, Apr 27, 2008
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