The Church Of The Cool And Groovy (A Worldy Christian View)

These kind of posts make me giggle on the inside.

Someone starts a post making very valid, good points, someone else adds more wonderful points about how he attends a church that does not compromise or need "tools, tricks, and gimmics" to lure people to coming to church, his church does their job and the Holy Ghost does His.

Yet, people start dog piling, why? Because he stepped on some toes and you got offended because your church would rather use artifical bait (lures) over live bait (Jesus Christ).

Hmmm.......

 

Again, yes, you're absolutely right. I did become frustrated and defensive at the attacks you all were throwing at me and said some things I should never have said.

But, in all fairness to me, at least I was man enough to apologize. Neither you nor Donna nor Larry have apologized to me or even acknowledged your role in the problems in that thread.

It's unfortunate that you feel the need to follow me around, from thread to thread, bringing up something that I've already apologized and repented for (say, isn't that what the Devil does? Remind us of our past sins?) but I'm praying that God will help you to overcome that bitterness.

I understand what it's like to be hurt. After all, it was the hurt that you all inflicted upon me that led to all of this mess in the first place.

But, sooner or later, you've just got to let it go. I have and I'm praying that God will give you the grace to do that, too.

God bless you. I'm praying for you.

 

Actually, we kind of do that.

Several years ago, I founded (with the help of a Calvary Chapel friend and the last orthodox Methodist on Earth) a chapel service for sailors, fishermen and recreational boaters on the Chesapeake Bay. There is a large hill overlooking the Bay and a little stage at the bottom.

Everybody sits on the hillside while we have the service.

Most folks bring a lunch or they walk across the bridge and get pizza and bring it back and we fellowship afterwards.

 

But do you pick up 12 baskets full when you're done? :saint:

I really don't understand why innovation can't be used to attract others to the message of God's salvation.

The opening post seems to connect cool and new with loss of message.
It's an unjust accusation and a terrible error.

D.L. Moody was a leader in such evangelism in his time.

We take Sunday School for granted but it was a new idea in Moody's time; it attracted a lot of criticism.

Bus ministries are founded upon key innovations that Moody developed as well.

He also uniquely used soloists like Ira Sankey to great advantage, bringing many into a saving knowledge of Jesus.

New ideas do not necessarily mean loss of message

Rob

 

What are these means?

Why can't we just preach the Gospel without having to rely on gimmicks? Is the Gospel really so weak that it can't be counted on to convict sinners on it's own? We have to have a rock band and a light show to help it along?

Kind of makes you wonder how Whitfield, Wesley, Spurgeon, etc, ever got along without 21st century seeker sensitive programs, doesn't it?

 

They make some nice retrievers up there

 

The problem isn't that the innovation is used to attract people to the message of salvation, but that, all too often in pop-Christianity, the innovation obscures the Gospel message.

I disagree. Look into the seeker sensitive/emergent/red letter Christian movements. It describes each of them with deadly (no pun intended) accuracy.

 

Isn't a sermon a means, and a message on a hillside with a meal a means? Isn't a tract a means? Or a revival a means?

It is impossible to connect what we have been describing as "cool" every time with those that are losing the message. That's funny....that's what I asked for clarification with you earlier when you jumped down my back for putting words in your mouth, and saying I was taking things out of context....then I see this little exchange...

Ya don't say...I can read after all!

 

Anonymous Christian is the controversial notion introduced by the Jesuit theologian Karl Rahner (1904 - 1984) that declares that people who have never heard the Christian Gospel or even rejected it might be saved through Christ. Non-Christians could have "in [their] basic orientation and fundamental decision," Rahner wrote, "accepted the salvific grace of God, through Christ, although [they] may never have heard of the Christian revelation."[1]


Looks like Hyper-Calvinism to me.

 

Look, it's a matter of balance.

The problem is not the Starbucks, the piercings or tattoos (shutter - yuck), the guitars and lively music;

The problem is lack of sound doctrine.

As many have pointed out, there are fine churches (even perhaps seeker-sensitive churches) that are able to balance the faithful message and innovative delivery.

As has been pointed out too, some go overboard and the message is drowned out.

On the other hand, there are churches that have failed to grow and while preaching a pure gospel, have weazened, loosing members as they slowly die out.

Balance is the key.
Loose it and the church dies.

Rob

 

Tony Campolo is a great man of God. I've heard him preach 3 times in person and he delivers a powerful gospel message. You're speaking from a political rather than a Christian point of view. Your link didn't work. Here's one that does:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m584z5aE4Uc

 

Actually, he's a flaming heretic who wouldn't know the Gospel if he tripped over it.

Here's a good link where you can hear his assault on the Gospel and Todd Friel's subsequent defense of it:

http://www.wayofthemasterradio.com/podcast/2008/02/18/february-18-2008-hour-2/

No, actually, I'm speaking from a purely doctrinal point of view.

 

Not really all that familiar with Dallas Willard (wasn't he a CCM singer from the 80's?), but Bell and McLaren have definately wandered off the doctrinal reservation.

I never will forget the interview Todd Friel did with McLaren and friel ran down a laundry list of essential doctrines and McLaren denied nearly every one of them.

 

What's your beef with Willard?

I've read McLaren, and get the problem with him. Rob Bell too.

But Dallas Willard, have you read "The Divine Conspiracy", or "Renovation of the Heart"?

Excellent books.

 

I'm not sure if he's said that, or not. Not in any of those books, unless I missed it.

Many say he promotes contemplative prayer, but I think when conservatives attack others over contemplative prayer they are meaning something completely different than what the "promoter" is talking about....if that makes any sense.

 

Yeah, but there are too many crazies out there (like Ken Silva) who accuse people of being eastern mystics, or hindus, or whatever because they think they promote contemplative prayer. When in fact the accusations doesn't meet reality.

It's like saying, oh...you're a fundamentalist...you must be one of those crazy KJVO guys. One label doesn't necessitate everything that must be brought with it.

 

When pastors stop appeasing people in their churches and trying to find ways to grow a church then the churches will either get on board or fire the pastor.

I have seen many times when I asked people to go visiting and do evangelism that they never had a problem understanding me but I had many excuses and people got mad. But in every case the church grew and there were people who got on board and won people to Christ while discipling others too.

It is like one old preacher said, "It's a battle field brother not a recreation room."