1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Christ's Redemption and Atonement

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ReformedBaptist, Jul 4, 2008.

  1. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    Is your salvation secure if you don't have faith? Christ's work is complete. But your salvation is only secure if you believe. Christ has done the work whether one believes (has faith in it) or not. That is why it is said that Christ died for all. It is only effective for those who believe. The blood has been shed, but it must be applied through faith.


    Isn't that what I've been saying?
     
  2. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    RB, the quoted statement is commonly used by many who claim to be calvinist. John MacArthur uses it as does his internet bouncer Phil Johnson. R.C. Sproul uses this statement as well. I am aware that James White, in his book The Potter's Freedom rejects this statement as an accurate or helpful explanation of calvinism. I will say this about calvinists who accept the statement, or some version of it, it is certainly interesting to say that the atonement is "sufficient for all" and still refer to it as limited.
     
  3. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    28

    Ok, I think you do not mean the statement you quoted in this post. lol What statement are you referring to? Allen's?
     
  4. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    RB, this is the statement with which you opened the thread and commented on, the comment that I quoted in my post. The statement above is often used by calvinists such as MacArthur and Sproul.
     
  5. Outsider

    Outsider New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2008
    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is the way I view this statement: The blood saves (unlimited), it is applied by faith (limited).
    When God poured out His wrath in Egypt, only the blood on the door kept them safe. Anyone who believed God, applied the blood to the door. If they applied anything else, it would not have saved them or if they said "I believe and/or have faith" but failed to do what was required, they would not have been spared. Only the blood saved them. This made the atonement unlimited in its extent, but limited in its application.
     
  6. Outsider

    Outsider New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2008
    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is the way I see it in scripture.
     
  7. russell55

    russell55 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not saved at all if I don't have faith, but that is not because my salvation depends on my faith.

    It is not my faith that makes my salvation secure, but Christ's work. Christ "secured eternal redemption." The security of my salvation is grounded completely in the finished work of Christ.

    My salvation is secure because God delivered up his son for me, and with his son he will freely give me all things. If Christ died for me and is at the right hand of God making intercession for me, then I cannot be condemned. That's where scripture grounds the security of my salvation. (Romans 8)

    Why do you think "all" means everyone without exception rather than everyone without distinction?
    Does the effectiveness of Christ's work on my behalf depend on my faith? Is Christ's work ineffective for those who don't believe?
     
  8. russell55

    russell55 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, I agree.
    But wasn't the passover sacrifice only done by Israelites? Wasn't it limited to them? And didn't all the Israelites apply the blood to the door? Weren't all the firstborn sons of Israel saved in this way?

    In other words, wasn't the extent of the passover sacrifice and the application of the passover sacrifice exactly the same? Was there anyone for whom the sacrifice was made who wasn't saved by it?
     
    #28 russell55, Jul 5, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 5, 2008
  9. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    It is Christ's work and faith that brings salvation.

    Christ died once for all, but only those who believe will be saved. Only those who apply the blood through faith will be saved. Just as the Hebrews had to apply the blood to the doors to be saved from death. God did not apply the blood Himself. It was up to each household to apply the blood to the door. God does the same today. He has made a way, but WE have to apply the blood through faith in Christ.
     
  10. nunatak

    nunatak New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Messages:
    445
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am getting confused. I thought salvation was BY grace THROUGH faith.

    I did not think salvation was BY faith.

    I do realize that we are justified by faith.
     
  11. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    That's what I said.
    We are saved by grace.
    Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

    Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
    Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
    Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


    We are justified by grace through the redemption and through faith.
     
  12. nunatak

    nunatak New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    Messages:
    445
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amy, I just don't get the whole apply the blood thing. Can you elaborate on this?
     
  13. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    It means to have faith in the shed blood of Christ for the remission of your sins and to receive eternal life.

    Just as the high priest had to apply the blood to the altar, Jesus is our high priest and has taken His blood to the true altar of God. We receive it through faith.
     
  14. Outsider

    Outsider New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2008
    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    0
    I view this as a shadow of today. The only difference being that God instucted Moses to tell Israel to apply the blood. Jesus instructed the Apostles to spread the gospel to all nations. From my view point, that makes the extent for all.

    Just my thoughts brother. Good discussion and God bless.
     
  15. russell55

    russell55 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh, I really have to disagree with this! Our faith does not bring salvation. Can you find anywhere in scripture where it says faith brings salvation? It says salvation is through faith, but it never says faith is on account of or because of faith.

    The way you've worded this makes it sound as if Christ's work of salvation is ineffective until we join our faith with it, and that we make his work effective by producing faith. Is that what you believe?




    The "once for all" in "Christ died once for all", BTW, is "once for all time."


    Where does it say we apply the blood through faith? I've never heard that phrase before.

    It was up to the elders to sacrifice the lamb and the heads of the households to apply the blood. I'd think that the parallel work in the new covenant is indeed done by God. God sacrificed the Son and the Holy Spirit applies Christ's sacrifice to us (or better yet, the Holy Spirit unites us with Christ).

    The members of the household had the blood applied on their behalf and they simply stayed inside the house where they would be safe. That, I'd think, is the more apt parallel to the role of faith in our salvation. They trusted, you might say, in what had been done for them by their representatives. Their faith was receptive, trusting in what had already been done for them.

    Another point: Wasn't everyone on whose behalf the passover sacrifice was made saved by it? Yes, they had to be obedient to God's commands, but wasn't the whole nation obedient so that everyone for whom the sacrifices were made who was delivered by the passover sacrifice?

    Christ has shed his blood for us and we rest in it. We receive the salvation accomplished for us by Christ's work by resting in what he has done for us.
     
  16. Outsider

    Outsider New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2008
    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi nunatak,
    We are saved by God's grace. Salvation is given to us by His grace. It is the Lord who justifies us. In short, it is all God. It is our responsibility to trust in the works of Christ. To believe that He is the Son of God and that He died for our sins and was raised from the dead. When the object of our faith is Christ and Christ alone, God freely saves us and justifies us.

    This is the way I have found it to be anyway. Many blessings!
     
  17. russell55

    russell55 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    Me too. I just see the parallels a little differently than you do, perhaps.

    This is a good point. And I do agree with you that the command is to spread the gospel to everyone. That is, perhaps, where I see the parallel between the passover and New Covenant salvation breaking down. In the passover, only the nation Israel was given the instructions, whereas now, God commands all people everywhere to repent.

    I'm not sure that makes the extent of the atonement universal, however. I think the parallel with the passover as to extent and application still holds. For one thing, the sacrifice on the day of atonement seems to have also been effective for everyone on whose behalf it was made, and the picture in Hebrews 2 of Christ as priest has him sacrificing the sacrifice of atonement on behalf of "the people" or "his brothers" which I take, in context, to be "the many sons brought to glory", "those who are sanctified" or "the children God has given me".

    The Russell in my screen name is a surname. I'm a sister. Sorry to be confusing like that. :)
     
  18. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    28
    I have not seen them use it. Could you share what you have read or where you have seen it? I would like to read their use of it. Thanks.
     
  19. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sproul uses it in his book Willing to Believe

    I have seen Phil Johnson defend the idea on his website "Pyromaniacs"
     
  20. Outsider

    Outsider New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2008
    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    0
    Many appologies sister. I am very sorry.
    I completely understand what you are saying and I can rejoice in it. I am a former TULIP subscriber but have found myself not subscribing lately - :laugh:

    There are many scriptures to explore to gain complete understanding of the issue. At this point, I am convinced that He died for all. This makes the extent universal in my personal theology. If the intent was for all, then the application is available for all.
    Many blessings.... Sister!!!!
     
Loading...