Christ's Redemption and Atonement

Scripture Citations Are From The NRSV

 

All Scripture Cited Is From The NLTse

 

There is no disputing that all that the Father gave to Christ will come but not all whom the Father draws will come. Verses 37 and 39 do not speak of God's drawing but His giving to Christ. Yes, their coming is bound in His drawing however we find nowhere that His drawing is only to a few but in fact notice in your own theology you acknowledge 2 callings. I contend that the so called 'inward calling' is only a logical conclusion based upon your theology and not so much as that which is born out from the scriptures. In fact those verse I previously gave speak volumes in that God called but they rejected and we can include the Parable of the Marriage feast as well to this argument as well.

However verses 44 and 65 merely state that no man can come to Christ unless the Father draws him, because unless God initiates through the revelation of truth because no man can come to the spiritual truth of Christ by himself - it is only revealed to him by God.

 

Allen may be, but I've no idea. "Copacetic" is not in my dictionary (where the next entry after "cop" is "copal"). Sorry Rip, was it a typo?

 

It's like saying "are we clear on this".

 

Thanks, Allan, and apologies for spelling your name with an e before.

 

:jesus:

LOL.. if you notice, even though it is spelled out almost no one spells it right :laugh: I've gotten Alan, Allen, Alen, and every once is a while it is correctly spelled "Allan". Oh well at least they know me.

 

I don't know how you avoid seeing that there is, in scripture, a kind of drawing/calling/revealing that is always effective. Paul actually sometimes uses the word "call" as a metonymy for being saved. There is a kind of calling/drawing/revealing that always ends in the salvation of the one being drawn.

Whether they've previously rejected the truth is beside the point of my argument, although I do think Paul is speaking generally here: about unbelievers; those who are perishing in general. The point I was making is that not everyone can believe. These are people who, for whatever reason, cannot believe.

Really? The Holy Spirit works so that those who never hear the gospel might believe?

The Father reveals the light of Christ through general revelation?

But, more to the point, I believe that scripture teaches two sorts of revealing—a revealing that comes in word only, and a revealing that comes in word and and in the power of the Spirit.

Given that you believe this, how do you interpret Philippians 1:29, where it says that believing in Christ's name is a gift in the same way that suffering for him is a gift?

But Paul puts this "light shining in" in the context of the creative work of God. God, who said, in the act of creation, "Let light shine out" has, in the case of our hearts, shone in to them. There is a creative force to this particular sort of giving of the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, and, I would argue a different sort of light than given to every man. That was an external lighting, but this is God shining in our hearts with the force of God's creative word behind the action.

Isn't every single person who is not right now believing an unbeliever? Isn't every single person who is not right now believing one of the perishing? If so, then I don't see your point here. It still means that everyone who is not now believing is blinded by Satan and Satan is keeping them from believing. Can they believe when Satan is keeping them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ? Don't they need God to unblind their minds or stop Satan from continuing to blind them?

He gives us the object of our faith and shines in to give "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." Isn't knowing "the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" an expression of faith itself? Isn't knowing Christ as he truly is called "believing in him"?

It doesn't say God allows them to repent. It says God gives them repentence.

Christians can be ensnared by the devil? Christians can be taken captive to do the devil's will?