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Is Baptism essential for salvation

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by 2 Tim. 2:15, Jul 9, 2008.

  1. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele New Member

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    [Accidental double-post. I got logged me out somehow. I logged back in as I was posting, and now there are two. Sorry.]
     
  2. 2 Tim. 2:15

    2 Tim. 2:15 New Member

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    I only quoted part of the scripture to make a point not in negligence of the other part...
    1 Ppeter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
    From my understanding the second part of this scripture is stating the difference between the form of baptism by water which once saved and the form of baptism by water which saves today. It doesn't say they differ in that one used water and the other doesn't. The difference is this: the first baptism saved by the putting off of the filth of the flesh (physical death), the baptism today saves not by physical death but mental death giving us a new conscious unto God as Paul says in Col 2 and Rom 6 clearly. 1 Peter didn't say that the use of water was lost in baptism nor did it say salvation was lost
     
  3. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele New Member

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    I have very little idea what you are trying to say. No one who has posted on this thread is suggesting that we not baptize in water. I also do not know where you get this apparent idea that Christian baptism has changed, or that Peter is talking about two different baptisms.

    I think my understanding of the passage, given in the post prior to your most recent post, makes more sense.
     
  4. 2 Tim. 2:15

    2 Tim. 2:15 New Member

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    I didn't say anyone said baptism is not of water I was just explaining my perception of the scripture. Did you read verse 20 ? That is where he mentions the flood saving 8 and he goes on in verse 21 to relate baptism today to the former example of salvation by water. The relation between the two is that the flood removed sin from the earth and baptism today removes sins. Can you see that?
    I'm on my phone trying to reply and it's kinda difficult I'll post more later when I get to my computer
     
  5. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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  6. 2 Tim. 2:15

    2 Tim. 2:15 New Member

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    Besides Darron your previou post implied that Peter wasn't even talking about water baptism ...but my reply shows how he was speaking of water baptism
     
  7. standingfirminChrist

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    Can you prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jesus was speaking of water baptism here and not the baptism of the Holy Spirit that happens upon belief?

    One can believe in the Lord without receiving the Lord. My oldest brother did.

    The devils also believe. They know who Jesus is. The devils in the demoniac of Gadarenes made this statement "What hast thou to do with us, thou Son of David? Art thou come to torment us before the time?"

    The devils are well aware of who the Christ was, is and always will be. This is why I believe Jesus said in Mark 16 "He that believeth and is baptized..."

    If water baptism was necessary for Salvation, then Jesus lied to the thief on the cross who made his profession of faith in his dying hours.

    No, to me it is clear the baptism Jesus spoke of in Mark 16 was the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
     
    #27 standingfirminChrist, Jul 10, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2008
  8. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele New Member

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    He was. I never said he was not, nor did I intend to imply it.

    I appreciate Linda64's use of the KJV at this verse.

    1 Peter 3:21 about "water" of 3:20: "The like figure whereunto|, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (KJV|NASB emphases mine).

    Peter made it clear that the bath in water does not save us. He made it clear that the "appeal to God for a good conscience" is what saves us. Peter uses the language of a "figure." Baptism is a "figure" of two things: "an appeal to God for a good conscience" and per Romans 6:2-11, Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

    From our end, we are saved by "an appeal to God for a good conscience." He expressly said that he did not mean that we are saved by the water bath. Water baptism is "figure" to "appeal to God for a good conscience." Per 1 Corinthians 15, our salvations were dependent upon the Resurrection, which baptism is also a "figure" to.

    Now, having addressed your apparent misunderstanding of my post on one particular passage, I ask for input on the additional passages I offered. Your keynote passages have been addressed.

    It is now your turn to answer challenges. How would you reconcile a belief that a believer on the Lord Jesus Christ who somehow does not get baptized
    a) will be condemned, in the face of John 3:16-8, and
    2) will not have receive remission of sins, in the face of Acts 10:43?

    I do not see how ANY teaching that some believers on the Lord Jesus Christ will not be saved can be reconciled with those two passages.
     
    #28 Darron Steele, Jul 10, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2008
  9. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Cornelius was clearly saved by faith in Jesus even before his baptism (Acts 10:43, 44; 15:6-9).
     
  10. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele New Member

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    That event was so important a precedent that it was discussed THREE times in Acts: in chapters 10, 11, 15. In the latter case, it was the basis for a major church decision.
     
  11. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    In I Peter 3:21, we need to lookat what the "like figure" refers to. It goes back to the deliverance of Noah and his family, saved by water in v.20. Yet, none of them were immersed in the water. They were borne up in the ark by the water.

    Noah and his family had already found grace from the Lord. They were not saved from their sins by water. They were saved from physical death.

    That being the case, baptism in 3:21 cannot refer to spiritual salvation. It must refer to something else.
     
  12. 2 Tim. 2:15

    2 Tim. 2:15 New Member

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    I'm not sure if I've explained this topic ("We are saved by belief alone") before but I think James can explain it far better than I can:

    James 2:14-22
    14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

    15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

    16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

    17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

    22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


    If your belief is dead without works what good is it to you or your salvation?

    Dead- No longer functioning, operating, or productive. no longer current or prevalent
    No longer in existence, use, or operation.


    Nevertheless, who are we to know who will be saved and who won't. Romans 9:15
    For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


    Does that answer your question?
     
  13. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele New Member

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    It does not do much to answer my question to you.

    I hope you did not need to refer to the dictionary to know the meaning of "dead." I surely did not need a dictionary definition on that word.

    The passages you cite are good for explaining what type of faith we should have. James said it well at James 2:18 "I will shew thee my faith by my works" as you quoted. As we can see, a real believer will live like it.

    Still, you seem to assert that a real believer will be unsaved if s/he fails to get baptized. That still flies in the face of John 3:16-8 and Acts 10:43, which assure us that
    a) no believer on the Lord Jesus Christ is condemned,
    b) that everyone who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will receive remission of sins.
    So, really, you have not answered my challenge. You have not explained how the view you are advancing does not directly contradict these passages.
     
    #33 Darron Steele, Jul 10, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2008
  14. 2 Tim. 2:15

    2 Tim. 2:15 New Member

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    How does that mean he was saved before baptism? Is it because the scripture says whosoever beleiveth on him shall receive remission of sins? The scripture didn't say sins are remitted upon believing. It said shall receive remission of sins

    Shall -plan to, intend to, or expect to; will have to, is determined to.

    That doesn't mean it happens right on the spot once they believe.

    Or are you saying he was saved upon receiving the Holy Ghost before baptism? Where does it say that receiving the Holy Ghost is the end of salvation? Find the scripture for me...I can't find one.
     
  15. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele New Member

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    "Shall -plan to, intend to, or expect to; will have to, is determined to." I hope you did not need the dictionary to know the meaning of that word too. I suspect that TCGreek knows elementary school-level English, and did not need a dictionary definition.

    Acts 15:8-9 “And God, who knoweth the heart, |gave them evidence|, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (ASV|NBV|ASV).

    Per Acts 10:43-8, the Holy Spirit came down on these believers before they were baptized in water.
    Act 10:47 Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?
    Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. (ASV)​
     
    #35 Darron Steele, Jul 10, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2008
  16. 2 Tim. 2:15

    2 Tim. 2:15 New Member

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  17. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Eph 1:13 In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,


    When Cornelius received the Holy Spirit, he was sealed by the Holy Spirit who does not break His promise of eternal life. He was sealed before he was baptized in water.

    This verse makes it clear what happens at salvation.
    We hear the gospel, we believe it and we are sealed for the day of redemption.



    2 Tim, do you believe water baptism saves?
     
  18. 2 Tim. 2:15

    2 Tim. 2:15 New Member

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    Yeah well I don't profess myself to be wise... that is how I study I look up words . I don't assume I already know the meaning of them even though I might. When I study I'm trying to find something new I don't just stay locked in to what I previously learned.

    Those scriptures were already quoted... can you explain why you're using them?
    You seem like you're getting a little aggravated Darron. We 're just having a little discussion here nobody's attacking you.
     
  19. Zenas

    Zenas Active Member

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    Darron, there was a time not so long ago when I shared this belief. Actually it never occurred to me that this verse might refer to baptism until I read Bible footnotes and commentaries that would raise this as one possible interpretation and then quickly dismiss the possibility. Then I started to read commentaries outside our Baptist world and learned that "born of water and the Spirit" is widely thought to mean baptism. Then I started reading the early church fathers and learned there was complete unanimity among them that John 3:5 refers to Baptism. Frankly, when it comes to knowing what these ancient writers of Scripture meant, I will defer to the early church fathers who spoke the same language, lived in the same era and understood all the idioms and nuances of the language. Many of them addressed this idea of being born of water and the Spirit. For the sake of brevity I will quote from only three:
    Justin Martyr, First Apology Ch. 61 (circa 150):
    Iranaeus, Fragment 34 (circa 190):
    Augustine, Letters 98:2 (circa 412):
    .
    No Church Father ever referred to John 3:5 as referring to anything other than baptism.
     
  20. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele New Member

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    I am not aggravated, nor do I think I am being attacked.

    I did think it was strange that you seemed to be quoting dictionary definitions of basic English words. As neither I nor TCGreek need a dictionary to know what "dead" or "shall" means, I did not see why you needed to quote them in your posts to us. We certainly did not need them.

    I also do not understand why you do not directly address the passages quoted to you prior and that I have repeatedly pointed you to. Let me simultaneously quote them again and explain why I am using them.

    Your position seems to be that if someone does not get baptized, s/he will not be saved. That means that if for some reason a believer on Jesus Christ never arises from a baptism, s/he will not be pardoned for sins committed and faces condemnation.

    I believe that this view is directly contrary to Scripture. I quote two passages again. First, John 3:16-8 spoken by Jesus Christ regarding Himself
    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to |condemn| the world; but that the world should be saved through him. |Whoever| believeth on him is not |condemned|: he that believeth not hath been |condemned| already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God” (ASV with |TNIV|).”​
    Acts 10:43, spoken by Peter,
    "To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins" (ASV).​
    The passages state explicitly that belief on Jesus Christ assures no condemntation and guarantees remission of sins. Your position, contrary to these passages, seems to be `If a believer on the Lord Jesus Christ never gets baptized, s/he will not be saved, will not get remission of sins, and is condemned.'

    I am using the passages because they state explicitly that belief on Jesus Christ assures no condemnation and guarantees remission of sins. This is something you seem to assert is not true if a believer fails to get baptized. Therefore, I believe your view is in direct contradiction to these passages.

    I challenge you to explain how your apparent view is not directly contrary to these passages.
     
    #40 Darron Steele, Jul 10, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2008
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