Amillennialism

Pilgrimer,

Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful answers. I have for DECADES never had a comfort for the whole "pre-tribulation rapture dispensationalism" genre of modern fundamentalism / evangelicalism. I think THEY grasp and read into the Scripture more than you do. Central to the Bible has always been the Law, the Prophets, Israel and of course the Messiah. I have been studying more and more the doctrine of last things and the different view points - historicist, futurist, idealism, preterism, etc.

Really thanks, man.

 

Pilgrimer,

And your God doesn't know how to tell time, does He -- because we're nearly 2000 YEARS beyond 30 AD!! Strange, because when God told of Christ's coming the first time, He got it right TO THE DAY, Dan 9:24!! But I suppose those are trivial, "inconvenient truths" in your theology.

skypair

 

But I never said it means all Jewish people will be saved - I don't know anyone who thinks this. I was speaking of "all Israel" meaning a large number of or perhaps majority of Jews. But that would be Israel as a nation.

As far as I know, it's a very small percentage of all Jewish people. And no one considers Israel Christian.

Sorry I misunderstood you. I did think that was what you were saying.

Okay, sorry for that too!

Okay, but that's not what Paul writes. He writes "all of Israel."

Well, no offense, but I think you are ignoring the clear meaning of this and reading your own meaning into it. This is not what it says.

Somewhat. Thanks for the further explanation and clarification!

 

skypair,

Numbers have spiritual meanings in the Bible and since much of the Book of Revelation IS allagorical, there is a Scriptural basis to interpret the 1,000 years as a time of completeness or fullness as well as a Scriptural basis that it is a literal 1,000 years TO THE DAY. BOTH "camps" use Scripture for thier beliefs. The conflict has to do with how they interpret and apply different OT verses / prophecies.

A partial preterist basis their beleifs on the Bible as much as a dispy does.

 

I know you are addressing Skypair but I have to ask how you know the numbers have spiritual meaning?

And what do they mean?

Do all numbers have spiritual meanings or do some also have literal meanings?

Just because a book is allegorical or symbolic does not mean nothing in it has literal meaning as well.

 

Who has convinced you that every word in the Bible must be taken literally? Perhaps we should not allegorize Jesus and claim he is the Lamb of God.

Actually, God didn’t really mean Jesus is a lamb, he’s not, he’s a man. That doesn’t make God a liar, God meant Jesus is a lamb . . . spiritually speaking.

I have found that the Bible actually does a lot of that . . . speaks of spiritual things, of things so profoundly mysterious, and breath-takingly glorious, they bring us to our knees . . . and it does so using plain old every-day words. Imagine that!

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.


In my theology, the Lord is in no hurry to bring the world to an end, one more day means one more chance for one more soul.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

I know you are talking to MB and I hope MB does not mind me putting in my 2 cents.

The problem with what you say here is that first of all, Jesus being the Lamb of God is not an allegory, it's a metaphor. And it's a metaphor clearly understood in context of the OT paschal/passover lamb and in how Jesus as the Lamb is presented to us in the NT.

Secondly, if there is allegory in the Bible, it is clearly presented as such. We don't read something presented as literal and then try to make it an allegory.

 

Amy, the works of Josephus, particularly "Wars of the Jews," is an exhaustive historical record of 1st century Palestine and the primary source for historians and archaeologists. I first began to study his works for the wealth of exacting archaeological information they contain, particularly in respect to the city of Jerusalem and the Temple mount complex. I have been fortunate to work for the Israel Antiquities Authority as a tour guide to the virtual theatre presentation of the Herodian Temple Mount during exhibits of the Dead Sea Scrolls, so my primary interest lay in that direction. But you cannot help but be shocked by what you will find in the writings of Josephus that will bring so many of the scenes and images of the Revelation to vivid life. Things such as the naval battle that was fought on that beautiful sea of Galilee in which there were so many Jews massacred that the sea was turned red with their blood, and the Jordan River, which flows out from the southern end of the sea, became so choked with dead bodies that, for the second time in history, it's flow was stopped. It gives new and dramatic meaning to this word: "And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed;" and again, "And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and foundation of waters; and they became as blood. And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy." Revelation 8:8-9, 16:3-6

I will refrain from further describing the horrors of that event and allow you to keep before your mind a more . . . bucolic memory of this precious sea upon whose waters our Master walked, and whose stormy waves were stilled at the sound of his voice. It is heart breaking to read of what happened to this once blessed land with all its sacred and dear memories, but at the same time it will strengthen your faith beyond anything you can imagine when you realize how well and truly every word of the Scriptures were fulfilled in the days of the coming of Jesus, which proves he is the Christ.

And allow me to connect one thread for you - the only people and the only city God held guilty of the blood of the saints and prophets of both the Old and the New Testaments . . . was Israel, and Jerusalem.

“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” Matthew 23:29-39

“Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen . . . and in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.” Revelation 18:2, 24

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

Hmm. Israel means Israel, but all doesn't mean all?

But you started out saying that premillennialism had to be correct because "all Israel" has not been saved and this verse says they will be. Now you're saying "all" Israel doesn't have to be saved, "most" of Isarel could be saved and they would count as the nation. But what if it just means "a lot" of Jews will be saved? How many have to be saved to count as Israel?

But if Israel in this case refers to those Jews Paul says God counts as the heirs, then all would mean all, every single one. The rest of the Jews don't count as the heirs, like Ishmael and Esau of old they have been disinherited and cast out.

After talking this over I think I am even more convinced that it is, in fact, those Jews who have received Christ who are the only Jews who do count in God's work of salvation.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

So you're unfamiliar with the '7 days of creations' analogy. Of is it just inconvenient, too? :laugh:

Four 'days' to the first advent -- 2 to the second -- 1 day to reign -- the 8th is the 'new day.' There's one day between "come as a thief" and "melt with fervent heat."

skypair

 

Pilgrimer,

I do not agree with you on "All Israel shall be saved" - Romans 11:26 that you saying many Jews will be saved.

"All Israel shall be saved" is not always limited for Jews only, also, include Gentiles well.

Look Romans 11:25 says "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in own coneits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the GENTILES BE COME IN."

Paul said, natural Jews were removed or cut off because of their unbeliefs. So, God grafted Gentiles in the tree to join with believing Jews together, then,

Romans 11:26 says, "And SO all Israel shall be saved."

Gentiles were strangers and alien aparted from commonwealth of Israel. BUT, bow Gentiles are part of commonwealth of Israel. Because Christ made both Jews and Gentiles reconciled together became one by Calvary.

Marcia,

Romans chapter 11 is not discuss about physical nation. It talks about individual as spiritual salvation by graft person upon tree. Tree is the picture of Jesus Christ. He is the vine of John 15:1.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Skypair,

2 Peter 3:10-13 telling us, this old planet earth shall be burned away with fire AT the Day of Lord, so, we are eager looking for new heavens and a new earth that would be AT coming of Christ, not supposed wait 1000 years later after Second Advent.

Peter's point of 2 Peter 3:8 is, he was talking about last days scoffers of 2 Peter 3:4, saying, "Where is the promise of his coming?" For many centuries, people have been heard rumors or Gospel saying that Jesus is coming again. Many people saying, Jesus should come again anytime now, but he never appears, so, the gospel is baloney or fairy tale. They do not believe in Jesus' coming. Same with Noah's days. Noah warned people that the flood will come and destroy the world. People heard rumors of Noah's warning on flood for many years. People made fun and mocked at Noah, think, he is fool. People do not believe flood will be occur-never. People were enjoying good times, do errands, etc.

BUT, the flood suddenly came upon them without any expecting. Same with Second Coming will be. That is called, 'thief in the night' is apply to lost people who are not watch and ready. When Christ appears with angels. Angels will grab unsaved people up in the air quickly without expecting.

That why, both Paul and Peter saying The Day of the Lord is called, "thief in the night". Many saying, 'thief in the night' is rapture. Not always. It apply to lost people only, who are not watch and ready will be caught up in the air by angels to bring them to faced Christ sits on throne, THEN cast them away into the lake of fire.

Now back to 2 Peter 3:8. The point is, waiting for Christ's coming seems toooooooo long for us like many years. BUT in the Lord's sight, time is very short for him 1000 years is like as ONE day. That means, His coming will be quickly, no delay. That why, Rev. 22:20 is my favorite verse. Jesus says, "SURELY, I COME QUICKLY." His coming will be as thief in the night for lost people who are not watch and ready will be caught up by angels without expecting, will be end up in fire, same as flood immediately came and took all unsaved people away and killed them.

Also, other point is, Lord is longsuffering toward people, He doesn't want all people go perish, but want all people come to repentance for salvation. The Lord is patience with people of the world for 2000 years. But, time is rumming almost out soon. As God's long-suffering will be become into fed up of his wrath when the right time to come. Then, God will punish the world with fire at His coming. That why, the gospel is now open to all nations. God wants all people to be saved.

But, most people are heart hardened against God and gospel, and sinning worst. So, God knows when the right to come. His coming will be quickly come to destroy the world with fire.

But, good news that we are eager looking forward for new heavens and a new earth will be create follow at the coming of Christ same time, not wait till next 1000 years after Second Advent. 2 Peter 3:10-13 explaining very clear.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

It doesn't really matter what word you want to use, allegory or metaphor are both perfectly good words. My own personal choice would be the more technical term "type" which has several definitions including: "A figure, representation, or symbol of something to come, as an event in the Old Testament that foreshadows another in the New Testament." This is the word that is more commonly used in the study of the typology of the Old Testament (which its full of, by the way), but I have no problem with the less technical term of allegory . . . or figure, or symbol, or shadow, etc.

But I certainly do agree that we cannot simply go through the Bible assigning some figurative meaning to words willy-nilly. There has to be Scriptural precedence for interpreting a word to have some particular spiritual meaning. For example, I believe Paul did in fact establish the principle that "Israel" does not always necessarily refer to all the Jewish people. Who God counts as "Israel" may be in fact be a select few of the Jewish people, a remnant whom Paul calls the "elect," whom James addresses as "the twelve tribes," and who the Scripture numbers as 144,000, which I don't take to be a literal number but rather symbolic of all the redeemed of Israel.

But you never offered any comments on what you think Paul was talking about when he said, "Not as though the Word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children," which began a lenthy discourse on who is and who is not counted among the Jews as Abraham's children and heirs, a teaching which he concludes with his statement “And so all Israel shall be saved.”

If by chance you are giving any consideration to my previous comments, allow me to point out that, although “allegory” is being used here by premillennialists in what seems to me to be a rather pejorative sense, it was the very word Paul used in teaching about this distinction that is made between these two groups of Jews, those Jews who are not counted as heirs, and those Jews who are counted as heirs, a remnant:

"Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.” Galatians 4:21-31

This is the same lesson that Paul taught in Romans 9 – 11, that not every one who is born a physical descendant of Abraham counts as Abraham’s children and heirs, not in God’s eyes, and Paul bases that teaching on the election of Isaac and Jacob over Ishmael and Esau and specifically stating that these things are an allegory. So I hope you will reconsider the allegorical explanation of who is the "all Israel" that God is going to save. But at any rate, and regardless of how you view this particular verse, I don't think it a good idea to limit such an important element of our overall view to just one particular meaning for one particular verse. There is a wealth of other verses which also teach about the salvation of Israel, as well as teaching about the judgment and destruction of Israel, and clearly the Scriptures teach both. I would recommend that our views be based on what I often refer to as "the weight of evidence" of the whole of God's Word, and there is probably more said about the salvation of Israel than any other single subject in Scripture, except of course the subject of God Himself.

I am of the conviction that the Bible is a self-interpreting book, and by that I mean every single time a word has some spiritual meaning, that spiritual meaning will be given to that word somewhere else in Scripture. For example, I have heard people scoff at the idea that the sun being darkened and the moon being turned to blood and the stars falling from the heavens spoken of in the Revelation could possibly be referring to the blindness and subsequent judgment and fall of the Jewish nation in the 7-year war, and yet, listen to this symbolic use of the sun, moon and stars:

“And [Jacob] dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told [it] to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What [is] this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.” Genesis 37:9-11

Now clearly this had a literal, historical meaning in that when Joseph ruled in Egypt his family did come to literally bow down before him when they came to Egypt seeking grain during the famine in Palestine. And naturally, I think this had messianic implications as well which I won’t go into, but the point is simply that there is undeniably very sound Scriptural justification for interpreting the passage from the Revelation about the sun being darkened and the moon being turned to blood and the stars falling from the sky as speaking of something other than some literal cosmological event, but rather as simply symbolic language for the fate of the Jewish nation in the days of the Coming of Christ. And you cannot argue that, by that interpretation, these words historically had a quite literal fulfillment.

But lest I be guilty of only telling half the story, allow me to point out that the sun, moon and stars are also used symbolically to refer to those faithful Jews who were the bride of Christ:

“And there appeared a great wonder in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.” This is symbolic of that faithful Jewish remnant who are, after all, the “Mother” of the body of Christ, both literally in terms of Mary having given birth to Jesus, but also symbolically in terms of that Jewish remnant being the body of believers which have given birth to the New Covenant church. That’s why historically the church at Jerusalem was referred to as the “MotherChurch.” (Revelation 12)

Perhaps, in the end, we both see a literal fulfillment in all these things. I just think the literal fulfillment took a different form than you do.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

But I think there is the very real possibility of taking that too far. I don't think that means Gentiles become Jews when they are saved. The Jews who have been reconciled with God are but one nation among all the nations of the world that belong to the household of faith. Iin addition to the 144,000 Jews who dwell with and serve God, there are also many other peoples and nations who are represented walking in the light of the New Jerusalem: "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. (Revelation 21:24)

The "root" that Gentiles are grafted into is not Israel, but Christ.

Gentiles become joint-heirs with the Jews, they don't become Jews.

But I also believe that in the larger picture, national identities will be far less meaningful than the oneness of faith that binds all the nations of the saved together.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

I am familiar with the Rabbinical messianic doctrine about the seven days of creation representing the 7 chiliads (1000's) of years, the doctrine that was picked up and taught as millennialism in the early church.

From that perspective, I would have to say that we are now living in the last day, the 7th day, the day in which God has given rest to those who walk in faith, who have ceased from their own works and found rest in the finished work of Christ.

"Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you will find rest unto your souls."

I think the 8th day will be the beginning of the new creation, the new heavens and new earth. And since that day will be the beginning of eternity, I assume there will be no more days, for time itself will cease to exist.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

Now if we can just get those fiesty prophets and apostles to agree with you! :laugh: Just as Rev 21 follows Rev 20 -- just so, "the first heaven and the first earth were passed away" (21:1) AFTER "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. " (Rev 20:4-6). Are you getting the idea that the first resurrection takes place when Jesus return -- He reigns 1000 years -- then the earth is dissolved?? So really -- don't make me use the "L" word that is so prevalent on the Presidential campaign trail lately.

Not really. They DIE IN THEIR TRACKS -- their tongues consume away in their heads at His coming, Zech 14:12!

I met a "New Ager" who taught this very thing. The "bad guys" taken away to another planet for "re-education" -- the "New Agers" stay and settle a peaceful planet Earth. Do you realize how close what you say you believe is to a cult's beliefs?

Again, dear one, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2Tim 2:15

skypair

 

It hasn't transpired yet, Amy. That's why you can't find it.

BUT during the tribulation, revived Rome will actually make a 7 year PEACE with Israel and break it in 3.5 years, Dan 9:27. Then they "shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon [where the remnant, 144,000, will escape and be preserved, Rev 12:14]." Dan 11:41

The parable of the marriage supper does speak of Rome destroying Jerusalem in 70 AD (Mt 22:7) and it WAS the Jews that were left in the city and judged as the parable states (the church had fled because they believed Luke 21:20).

Just like I hated to see you "distracted" by the Calvinists before, I hate to see you spending your time investigating these deceptions. I would dare to say they have not done their own "Berean," Spirit-led investigations but have believed "cunningly devised fables" -- HUGE blocks of ALLEGORIZED scripture -- in order to come up with their scenarios.

skypair