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Did Christ atone for unbelief?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Oct 28, 2008.

  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    :wavey:Yeppers. And know it was NOT directed at me.

    Just trying to give a clue to folks how they SHOULD answer the question you raised biblically. It's the teacher in my, I guess. I truly hate to see folks flailing in darkness because they have their eyes shut in a well-lit room!
     
  2. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    JC, I think the weakness of your position is that it does not explain how God achieves justice and satisfies his own righteous wrath toward sin. Again, to put it in human perspective, who pays for Hitler's sins? Is God eternally unrecompensed for Hitler's sin or does Hitler pay for it? I have raised that question several times and no one has addressed it. I'd welcome someone explaining how God is recompensed for Hitler's sin and how God achieves a just outcome in light of the far-reaching effects of Hitler's sinful acts.
     
  3. mark1

    mark1 New Member

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    Where is the "atonement" for those who are yet to be born?

    God has it, for Jesus died for all and gave the atonement to the Father. For anyone to receive that atonement, or have it applied to their sins, "they must believe".

    1Ti 2:6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    So, who will receive the atonement, "the believers", for God adds to the church daily, such as should be saved. Who will keep the rest of the atonement for the unbelievers, God will. The unbeliever will pay for his sins in hell and the LoF. The atonement was made but not applied for the "unbeliever".


    Lev 16:32And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, [even] the holy garments:

    Lev 16:33And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.

    They were not all worthy of this atonement, some were even stoned to death.
     
    #103 mark1, Nov 1, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 1, 2008
  4. jcjordan

    jcjordan New Member

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    He achieves justice and satisfies His own righteous wrath in one of two ways....through Christ's death for the elect or by everlasting torment in hell for the non-believers. Either Christ pays for one's sins, or the person himself pays for His sins eternally in hell. I believe this eternal tornment satisfies God's wrath.

    Another thing, I think we need to be very careful in declaring Hitler's sin as being any more hideous as our own. We need to remember that our sin is heinous not necessarily for what the sin was as much as Who the sin is against. God is recompensed for Hitler's in one of the same manners I spoke of above...although from what we know in history, it was probably option #2.
     
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    How can finite man make an infinite restitution to an infinite God?
     
  6. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Good question.

    JC, we all fall short of God's standard whether we are Hitler or Shirley Temple. However, individual sinful acts are individual offenses toward God. Every sinful act is sin, but murdering people has a greater consequence in history than simply dreaming about murdering people. Hebrews says that, under the law, every sinful act bore its own individual penalty. Let's not confuse being judicially guilty before God with just consequences for individual acts. While all men are sinners, few men in history have been as evil in their compounded acts as Hitler.

    Consider this: If Hitler's justice is to spend all eternity in hell in retribution for his acts, shouldn't a person who never murdered anyone, but went to hell centuries before Hitler, be able to get out a little early? I am not arguing for this view, but it seems to be the logical conclusion we would arrive at if we consider people to be paying for their own sins in hell or if we even consider it possible for them to do so.

    Also, consider this: a Christian family in a church has a member of their family fall victim to murder, and the state mistakenly lets the killer go free. If the sacrifice of Christ does not entail an offer of forgiveness to the murderer, how can the Christian family be obligated to forgive the murderer? If the sacrifice of Christ does not provide a sacrifice to God that appeases his wrath, then on what basis can God say "Vengeance is mine, I will repay?" Another words, when and how does God repay the murderer?
     
  7. jcjordan

    jcjordan New Member

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    No, because of whom the sin was against...a Holy God. God pouring out His wrath on an unrepentant sinner is not the same as a sinner attempting to pay for His sin.

    If they are Christians they are obligated to forgive because they themselves have been forgiven much! If you don't see yourself as a great sinner, a sinner as great as that murder, then you don't have a great Savior.
     
  8. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    JC, you said this:
    But just two or three posts ago, you said this:
    So you believe a person is paying for their sin in hell and you also believe that they are not paying for their sin in hell and you use the argument that best suits you at the time? Sorry, but I find these two statements confusing at best and contradictory at worst. Please clarify.

    And...
    I agree, but the same God who offers them forgiveness also offers forgiveness to the murderer if he will repent, right? Otherwise, they are obligated to forgive a person whom God is unwilling to forgive which would make them morally superior to God. And you did not answer the question about God's vengeance, perhaps you will....
     
  9. mark1

    mark1 New Member

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    Well, what can I say. I posted several times with no responses. No one seems interested in those who have not even been born again. Christ has already died and shed His blood. He will not be dying again in the future, so the atonement must be somewhere, but no answer. If you are Cal, I can understand, but if you are not Cal, then you must wonder about the unborn. Guess, I am on the outside looking in. Thanks anyway though, peace

    What you all seem to be saying is that there is a difference in sin and punishment. Which Jesus said, "he that delivered me unto you, hath the greater sin".
     
    #109 mark1, Nov 1, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 1, 2008
  10. jcjordan

    jcjordan New Member

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    I understand your confusion. What I mean is that a man may pay for the penalty for his sin by eternal torment in hell, but this is not by his own effort in order to make things right with God. It is fully an act of God to satisfy His wrath. Sorry for the two statements that sounded as if I was talking out of both sides of my mouth.
    I paritally agree and disagree with this statement. There's so much to unpack here, but I'll just say that Christ's forgiveness of our sins is enough to hold us responsible for us to forgive others. I prefer at this time to get to your unanswered question.
    He repays the murderer in one of two ways....eternal torment in hell or he has poured out His wrath on Christ. I think I've said this before. It sounds to me as if you don't think eternal torment in hell sufficiently satisfies God's wrath. If you don't think it does, then I'm not sure where we can go with this discussion.
     
  11. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    This convo seems to be bleeding over from atonement into propitiation, Mark. That is why so many are non-plussed by your question.

    Christ's sacrifice was propitiation (satified God's judgment) for ALL sin except unbelief. The believer's belief in Christ is what ATONES, reconciles, him to God. Now in hell or heaven, there are different levels of suffering or bliss based on GOOD works as 1Cor 3 points out.

    Wood, hay, and stubble (misguided works, not sin), don't follow the believers into heaven and they won't follow the lost into hell either. The only "works" that appear in the "book of works" (Rev 20:12) are good works. Christ died for all sin, folks. God is satisfied. Hell is eternal separation from God and the "burning" is spiritual -- within one's soul and spirit that they did not reconcile to God and are now separated eternally.

    You're not "on the outside looking in." They just can't explain it using their unscriptural paradigm. Infants are INNOCENT. They never come to the judgment seat but are resurrected into the MK of Christ to live lives as you and I now live wherein they may choose Christ or not.

    On what basis are they resurrected to earth again? On the basis of 1) sin is non-transmissible from father to child (Ezek 18:20) and they have not sinned themselves and 2) the resurrection is called "the resurrection of the just." Infants are just -- still reconciled with God -- on account of innocence.

    skypair
     
  12. jcjordan

    jcjordan New Member

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    For the record, the above statement is comparable to a steaming pile of crap.
     
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Amen brother Bob!

    But, I still am not a 5 pointer (no "L") and I dont know logically how to reconcile pure biblical grace as Dr. Bob has illustrated with several passages of Scripture that indicate that Christ death was for all men:

    1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.​

    I know the standard answer to this passge is that John here is speaking of the wall of partition between the Jew and the Gentile. However that (IMO) is not context of the Book of 1 John nor is it even hinted at (apart from perhaps this passage).

    Take this passage in the same Book, same author:

    1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.​

    This seems to me a proof text against the wall of partition.​

    Another:
    John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.​

    This passage is within a Jewish context and even uses the phrase Israel in the immediate context but John (under inspiration) uses the words tou cosmou and not "Israel" or even the "elect".​

    Another:
    1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    If He did not die for all men then how could He be (in any sense) the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe?​

    Another:
    2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.​

    These false prophets/teachers have brought in damnable heresies and are going to suffer "destruction". ​

    Yet the Scripture plainy, simply declares that the Lord "bought them".​

    There are other passages but these will suffice.​

    So, my own conclusion is that grace is exactly how the Scripture declares (as Dr. Bob has illucidated), yet He is the Savior of all mankind.​

    Why then will the many perish?

    Because He knew them not (for whatever reason). No rebirth. No faith, no resurrection unto life eternal (in that order, though a case can be made for simultaneous rebirth-faith).​

    They are however still His (since He bought them) to do with as He pleases:

    Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.


    HankD​
     
  14. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Well, I hope that post made you feel better. One can only imagine where you must have been when you produced it.

    You can't "receive atonement" (Rom 5:11) for your sins without believing in Christ and Christ doesn't atone for your sins thus reconciling you to God without your belief on Him.

    There is only 1 mention of "atonement" in the whole NT. The most obvious synonym is "reconciliation." If you are saying that reconciliation with God comes through any other means, I'd like to hear it.

    skypair
     
  15. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    reposted for jc to answer...
     
  16. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Why the ridiculous question asked AGAIN? It was so ludicrous it was ignored.

    Man CAN'T ever pay for his sin. Don't think anyone said that he could. He could (and will) spend eternity in hell condemned and not pay for one iota of sin.

    Did JC say man COULD pay for his own sin? Sorry if I missed it, but I don't think he's catholic . . .
     
  17. jcjordan

    jcjordan New Member

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    Something I said was taken and twisted to mean something else. In a later post, I clarified my view to say that God is the one who would get his justice. It is a ridiculous question and the questioner doesn't hold to historical baptist so the question will never be answered to his satisfaction.
     
  18. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Thanks. Figured as much. :(
     
  19. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Well, I don't think a clear answer has been given on this question. Here is what JC said TO CLARIFY his earlier statement:
    I absolutely do not think that eternity in hell satisfies God's wrath; neither does it recompense God for man's sin. If eternity in hell satisfies God's wrath, we have two problems. One, man is paying for his own sin. Two, God's wrath is never satisfied because eternity--well, it's eternal. This is the question, then: who satisfies God's wrath against sin?

    At this point, I will repeat my capital punishment illustration: If a man commits murder the state meets out justice to that man my taking his life. However, the victim is not recompensed by the taking of the murderers life because the victim is still dead. In the same way, God justly sends sinners to hell, but God is not recompensed for the sinner's sin by this act because it is impossible for a man to pay for his own sin AS DR. BOB HAS SO FORCEFULLY AND DOGMATICALLY STATED!

    I ask again; how is God recompensed for man's sin?

    Here is the only answer: Jesus offered a perfect, complete sacrifice to God to recompense him for all sin.

    If there is some other answer, I beg you, please tell us what it is.

    I will follow this thread to see what is said, but unless it is something of substance, I'm finished here. Thanks for an interesting conversation.
     
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Skypair said the following in post #71 to me :"You actually seem to think you have something you DON'T have."

    It was set in the context of receiving Christ.That posted statement of Sp's seemed to imply that I do not have Christ as my Savior.Sp,you'd better start clarifying right now or apologizing because you are in violation of BB rules.Don't be a coward,fess up.
     
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