1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Did Christ atone for unbelief?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Oct 28, 2008.

  1. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    1
    Interestingly, I don't think the Bible tells us the purpose of hell (that I can think of) except that it was originally intended for Satan and his angels.

    I said the opposite - that people cannot pay for their sins- so I'm not sure why you bring that up.

    I think hell is the consequence for sins not forgiven in Christ through faith. Whether you call that punishment or not is semantics.
     
  2. mark1

    mark1 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2008
    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, Christ's blood will cover "one" sin, or the same amount of blood will cover a zillion.

    If eternity pays for one, then why can't eternity pay for a zillion?

    What if you remove the element of "time" Web, in other words, no matter the sin or sins, there is no end to the Lake?

    We sing a song "one drop fell on me".

    If "one drop of Christ blood" can cover one sin or a zillion, why can't the same be true on the punishment end. "eternity for one or eternity for a zillion"???
     
    #142 mark1, Nov 3, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2008
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    Wait...do you hold to the atonement applying to everyone? I'm confused by your stance.
     
  4. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In post # 126 Sp tried to wriggle free of my charge that he was saying that I am not saved.He said:"See what happens when you take words out of context!I was saying that you didn't have the godly wisdom you thought you had -- you only had high self esteem (sic)!And boy!!I don't know anyone on BB that (sic) beats YOU for(sic) high self (sic) esteem."

    Well,that was certainly a humble apology on your part.I didn't see any reference to "godly wisdom"in your original post.On the contrary you were speaking of the reception of a gift.That gift is eternal life.You're still back to square one.You still haven't satisfactorily explained why you said that I only think I have something when in reality I don't have it at all.

    Additionally you still labor under the grave misconception of works-righteousness i.e. meriting eternal life -- deserving it.That is anathema to me and any true believer.
     
  5. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Again, in my defense of the truth, I will refer you to the full context of that paragraph (which includes several "complete thoughts" regarding a particular topic sentence) and add, to my defense, that you have constantly been looking to indict me for some reason or other to get me booted off the board.

    Let me ask you, rip, is there any place for works in salvation? How about in sanctification? Isn't sanctification the progressive salvation/growth of our spirits that takes place during our lifetimes?

    Do you admit that faith without works is dead? Perhaps you could look at it this way -- if you are "dead," the Holy Spirit mustn't have indwelt you or you would be "alive"/"quickened"/"born again," right?

    You certainly can't be claiming to be saved in the absence of works, can you?

    skypair
     
    #145 skypair, Nov 4, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 4, 2008
  6. mark1

    mark1 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2008
    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    0
    No Sir;
    I believe the ransom was paid for everyone to the Father, but for anyone to receive the gift from that ransom, they must believe. I believe God has the blood of His Son, not only for the believers now, but for the "unborn", if they will believe. For the part of Israel that was cutoff, if they will believe. When Jesus died, he presented the offering to the Father. It is God who adds to the church daily, such as should be saved and that is those who "believe" that Jesus is the Christ.

    1Ti 2:6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. :thumbs:

    It not only is what I believe that the ransom was made for all, it is scripture.

    Scripture also says, God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Well, Jesus has already shed the blood, made the atonement and some have not even been born as of yet. Where do you think that blood is, if they will believe?

    If they do not believe, then God will not apply the blood to them.
     
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

     
  8. jcjordan

    jcjordan New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2007
    Messages:
    316
    Likes Received:
    0
    hmmmm......very intersting.
     
  9. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    HankD -- his wrath abides DURING THIS LIFE on them that believe not. I believe when we look at eternity and the lake of fire, that is "self-inflicted" wrath and separation, don't you?

    skypair
     
  10. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Y'all,

    I think we need a better working understanding of what atonement means.

    Webster says: "2. the Christian doctrine that the RECONCILIATION of God and mankind will be accomplished through Christ."

    From this definition, it should be obvious that Christ didn't reconcile everyone to God but only those who want to be reconciled and come through Christ for it.

    I apologize to Calvies for misunderstanding the term earlier and I now agree that atonement is limited to those who believe. :thumbs:

    skypair
     
  11. Allan

    Allan Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,902
    Likes Received:
    5
    Sky, I would suggest you continue to study it out.

    What Websters is refering to, is the completed act of the reconcilation of God to man AND man to God. No one disputes this fact that what the atonement is about is the 'reconciliation' of the two (man and God) but what Webster does not address is the extent of the atonement or better toward whom the atonement directed. Is it ONLY the elect that it is directed towards or the Whole World. Scripture states in no uncertain terms the 'propitiation' (atonement) was for the WHole World but only the Elect will recieve through faith.

    What we agree on (cals and non) is that the atonement only brings full reconciliation to believers but were we differ is the extent to whom it was offered.
     
    #151 Allan, Nov 4, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 4, 2008
  12. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bless your little Calvie-dissing heart, Allan! :laugh: You still have something to learn!

    Propitiation means to turn away wrath, appease. Because they believed in the coming Messiah, the OT saints didn't go to the lower portion of sheol when they died but went to the "Abraham's bosom" portion. They were still separated from God. And what those in the lower portion experienced was, arguably, NOT God's wrath but the darkness, thirst, fire, separation, and dying of their own making.

    Atonement and expiation mean to bring together, reconcile. Because Christ had died, He was able to bring the OT saints to HEAVEN with Him - to reconcile God and man.

    Do you see that propitiation is directed toward all but atonement only to believers? I think Calvies and free willers can get to common ground from here, don't you? In fact, Christ DID "do it all" so far as propitiation for ALL sin for ALL mankind is concerned! Dr Bob ought to be pleased to see that I agree with him for once! Now we just have to discuss how to receive the atoning work of Christ!

    skypair

    skypair
     
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hi Skypair,

    Some versions translate the word "abides" as "remains" such as the NIV:

    NIV John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.​

    The apparent idea is that we come into this world under the wrath of God, presumably because we are the seed of Adam.​

    "Self inflicted" ? - that one is tough whether Calvinist or Arminian.​

    Let's just say that in the final analysis we all put our stamp of approval on what we are no matter the consequence. That's my thought. ​

    Perhaps for the wicked, to be in heaven in the presence of God would be more torment than being cast into the lake of fire.​

    As to the wrath of God, the Book of Revelation makes it perfectly clear that there is indeed such a thing as the wrath of God. ​

    Starting in Chapter 16:​

    NKJV Revelation 16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.​

    And that those who receive it are worthy of it...​

    Revelation 16
    5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
    6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.​

    Neither would they repent...​

    Revelation 16
    9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
    10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
    11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.​

    So yes, while it has the quality of being "self-inflicted" in that they are "worthy" and would not repent but instead they blasphemed God, it still remains the wrath of God that falls from the seven bowls because of their behavior.​

    HankD​
     
Loading...