Capital Punishment ...

Ok well do you see where you used the 1 Tim passage out of context as a proof text? And it how it is poor hermeneutics?

I will address this statement once we get that resolved.

 

The context I Tim. 1:16 is the attitude Christians should have toward others, especially those who have committed the worst of sins. The attitude we are commanded to have is that of "perfect patience" and mercy. Why? Because God specifically tells us in this passage that Jesus showed mercy to Paul as an example of perfect patience to future believers. That means we are to follow the example of Christ in showing perfect patience to the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.

Now, if you see a mistake in that interpretation, just engage the words of the text and show me why I am wrong.

Are you saying Paul wasn't telling us to follow the example of Jesus in showing perfect patience to the worst of sinners?

Then exactly what example did Jesus give to us to follow? We are clearly told Jesus gave an example of something. That example is specifically said to be directed to those who would believe in the future. What example are we to follow? (bold for emphasis not yelling)

You claim the context is salvation. Are you saying we are to grant salvation to people, just like Jesus did? I doubt you are saying that. But then, your claim the context is salvation doesn't make sense.

Please engage the words of the text and tell me exactly what the example of perfect patience means and who exactly are we to direct it to.

And God didn't need a single Christian's help to carry out the death penalty on Annanias and Sapphira. He didn't need a government. He didn't need swords or stones or ropes or lethal injections.

He just took their lives in His perfect wisdom and righteousness. God gets to do that because He is God.

All we, as Christians, get to do is love with perfect patience and mercy, as we are commanded to do.

peace to youraying:

 

You have not shown that I have taken the passage out of context. You have simply stated that you believe I have, but you have offered no evidence (other than your opinion, which is not evidence) that I have taken the passage out of context.

I welcome your engagement of the passage in I Tim. 1, so as to demonstrate my poor hermeneutics, that I may learn and grow in Christ.

peace to youraying:

 

The entire chapter is about standing against a false doctrine (v.3). The comparison made is between keeping the law and grace (vs. 8,9,16). The grace being discussed in this chapter is with regards to salvation and salvation alone (v.16). There is nothing here that addresses long suffering, grace, and mercy with regards to criminal activities and how they should be adjudicated. The context is salvation alone.

 

I have never said Christians should be envolved in the adjudication of criminal activity, but just the opposite when it comes to the death penalty. As far as your assertion that there is "nothing here that addresses long suffering, grace and mercy in regards to criminal activities" you are simply wrong.

(v.8) The law is made"....for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, an immoral men....(v.13) even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent agressor, Yet I was shown mercy...."
(16) "Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost (sinner), Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

Please define "for this reason I found mercy"

Please define "in me as the foremost"

Please define "Jesus Christ might demonstrate"

Please define "His perfect patience"

Please define "as an example"

Please define "for those who would believe in Him for eternal life"

Paul is clearly referring to his life as violent sinner, someone who had murdered others.

Paul is clearly saying that all future believers should follow the example of Jesus Christ in showing perfect patience and mercy toward those who are the worst of sinners, even murderers like himself.

This passage is not simply about Paul coming to salvation. Unlike Eph. 2, there is clearly another message here. This passage is about the attitudes Christians should have toward others.

That is why Paul says, in chap. 2 that we are to offer prayers and entreaties on behalf of all men,....That is an attitude of mercy toward all men.

BTW, for someone claiming my hermeneutic is flawed, you haven't demonstrated a willingness to actually engage the passage in question (v. 16)

I am still waiting for you to show me why my view of v.16 is flawed.

peace to youraying:

 

Sure you did. you insist that the adjudication Christians should support is anything other than the death penalty. That is the point of this entire thread.

No. You have not given any evidence to show that.

All of these are in the context of salvation as vs.15,16 shows.

Salvation

Salvation

Salvation

in regards to salvation

To those who would know there is no sin that would interfere with salvation

This supports my point

That's right.

No he is saying God does this and we have Paul conversion as an example that we can come to Christ regardless of our past history.

There is nothing here to preach that from. The entre chapter is about the false doctrine Timothy was to address v.3. Paul then goes on to compare the law against grace with regards to salvation.

No it is because God would have all men to be saved. 2:4

I specifically addressed it. You need to go back and reread my post.

And I have done that effectively.

 

I think a better word would be passion.

 

Please explain exactly how Christians supporting the death of someone helps the stated desire of God to have all men be saved? Why not give that person every moment of their natural life, until God Himself brings about his death, to consider his sin and come to Christ?

peace to youraying:

 

First Paul is not addressing the death penalty in that verse. Second, why does God allow the lost to ever die before they are saved. God is not circumvented because Christians support the death penalty as Paul did :

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:
Rom 13:4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.

 

Hey Rev, the bleeding hearts don't understand Romans 13:4. It's a moot verse to them.

 

There is no other way to interpret the sword. Not even reasonably.

 

I must be candid that I am not impressed with your hermeneutic approach to this verse. You didn't appear to put much thought into your responses.

canadyjd wrote: Please define "for this reason I found mercy" Revmitchell answered:

In the context of I Tim. 1:16, Paul is pointing to his next statement concerning Jesus demonstrating perfect patience as an example for future believers.

canadyjd wrote: Please define "in me as the foremost" Revmitchell said

. Actually, in context, Paul is referring once again to the example Jesus is demonstrating to future believers. Paul is referring to himself as an example of the worst of sinners. The "prototype" of sinners. Even worse than the "murderers" and those who kill their fathers or mothers, which he mentioned in v.9.

canadyjd wrote: Please define "Jesus Christ might demonstrate" Revmitchell said

"demonstrate" is "evdeizntai" in the subjunctive. This is "a form of the verb that indicates that an act or state is not an actual fact, but is possible, desirable, probable, conditional, or wished for" (Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament: Friberg, Friberg, Miller. appendix 3, p.438)

We know that Paul's salvation is a fact. The "desirable" or "wished for" state or condition must refer to something other than Paul's salvation.

canadyjd wrote: Please define "His perfect patience" Revmitchell said

Patience is makrothumiav, which means "as a state of emotional quietness in the face of unfavorable circumstances patience, longsuffering: (2) as constraint exercised toward others forbearance, patience (3) as God's constraint of His wrath long-suffering, forbearance.

canadyjd wrote: Please define "as an example"; Revmitchell said

This may be the most important issue in the passage. Does the "example" refer to Paul receiving salvation or to Christ demonstrating "perfect patience". The context of I Tim. 1:16 requires the "example" to be referring to "His perfect patience". Remember that Paul's salvation was a fact, not a wished for condition.

canadyjd wrote: Please define "for those who would believe in Him for eternal life": Revmitchell said:

As noted earlier, when Paul used the phrase "demonstrate His perfect patience", the word "demonstrate" was in the subjuctive. It referred to a "desired" or "wished for" state or condition.

The context informs us that the "desired" or "wished for" condition is an attitude of perfect patience (constraint exercised toward others forbearance, patience) that is for future believers to exhibit toward the worst of sinners.

Therefore, our Lord Jesus desires Christians to exhibit constraint and longsuffering with the worst of sinners. We are to follow His example of perfect patience which He demonstrated when He showed mercy to Paul.

As I stated earlier, support for the death penalty is inconsistent with this specific command to have perfect patience with the worst of sinners.

You simply cannot exhibit perfect patience and support putting someone to death at the same time.

peace to youraying:

 

Your attempt at hermeneutics overshoots the context of this passage. This usually occurs when you are searching for a preconceived outcome. I layed out very carefully the poor use of this verse to support your position. The context of this verse is salvation to include "perfect patience".

Every time you dissect this chapter you make a failed attempt to place it in a context in which Paul never intended. Each word you wanted to define was in the context of salvation. The whole chapter is in the context of salvation.

V.16 is clearly in the context of salvation as is the entire Chapter:

1Ti 1:16 howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

There is no context here in this chapter that speaks to an adjudication of the death penalty. However, Romans 13:4 does.

 

Romans 13 deals with the fact that even governments come under God, despite the fact that the leaders may themselves be evil..........showing the absolute sovereignty of God. He is over all. It does not, however, state that execution is the desirable action. Also, this action can and should be changed by those governments so that "love your neighbour" prevails. Love not vengeance.

That is my take on it.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I engaged the text, in context. I examined the meaning of the words, in context. I have a solid foundation on which to base my belief.

BTW, I came to this verse and others supporting the death penalty. After reading it and others, in context, I realized I could no longer support the death penalty in that it contradicted the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I changed my mind to comform to the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If you call answering every question with "salvation" to be a very careful examination of the text of I Tim. 1:16, then your hermeneutic is flawed. I showed you the context, and the meaning of the words in context.

Again, who is the "perfect patience" directed to? Clearly, in context, it is given as an example to be followed by those who would believe in the future.

I do not believe you are looking at the verse in the context Paul meant for it to be read. This verse is clearly speaking of the attitude Christians should have toward those who are the worst of sinners. An attitude of "perfect patience", which consist of constraint and mercy.

You cannot support the death penalty and exhibit the perfect patience commanded by our Lord Jesus Christ at the same time. They are in conflict.

peace to youraying:

 

Come on people, ya'll are smarter than this. People are not governments, and governments are not people. You can't take verses that command us (people) to be merciful and to forgive unconditionally and apply them to governments. Vengence is wrong. Justice meted out by government is not vengence. Government has an obligation to administer justice, and justice for certain crimes calls for the death penalty.

 

Where did you get vengeance from?

 

I understand governments will have laws and kill people who violate them (or kill those who get on the wrong side of someone in power)

It is clear to me that Christians are not to support the death penalty. God has called us to be different.

God has called us to love with perfect patience and mercy.

Let God use the ungodly to kill. Let Christians love with perfect patience.

peace to youraying:

 

You have failed to present the context you assert. Defining the list you presented does not exeget context. Each item on your list can be used in a number of contexts as can v.16. What you pass over is the beginning of the passage that set up the context as I have layed out several times. It is as if you assume that the only context v.16 or the items on your list can only be in the context you assert. This is false.

So here is the context:

v.16............Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.

 

That is what I said. It is an example to be followed. I'm glad you are finally agreeing with me.:smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraying: