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Southern Baptists and Dispensationalism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Dec 4, 2008.

  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    And airplanes falling out of the sky. And cars without drivers. And teachers leaving classrooms. And . and. and.!!!!!
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    In the Bible. You probably know the arguments, Jim. Don't be snarky about it. But I never refer to it as mystical or secret.

    Me either. But you are educated enough to know that dispensationalism doesn't depend on Scofield, or at least you should be.

    You can do better than this, Jim.
     
    #22 Pastor Larry, Dec 4, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2008
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    And what kind of kingdom do you think it was? The kingdom is described in the OT, and there is unequivocally earthly. It already existed, and Christ is the next king of it.

    No one right now. That is a reference to end time Israel who will, just as God promised, repent and believe the Messiah (cf. Zech 12, among more passages than can be posted here).

    You can write it if you wish, but that won't make it true. As I have said, I have yet to see dispensationalism refuted from the Scriptures. Consider your own efforts here and how very little Scripture they use. I am not impressed by it.

    How so? You haven't shown any twisting, and you didn't respond to the evidence I posted against your position.
     
  4. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Could someone list the promises made to Israel? Chapter and verse please. :)
     
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    That is simply not true. Jesus Christ did not offer a carnal kingdom but a Spiritual Kingdom which many Jews accepted, the nucleus of the New Testament Church.

    Wrong again. The people, or nation as KJV states, is the Church.

    You won't believe the Scripture that is presented. Why can you not show one passage of Scripture where jesus christ definitively offers an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews. You can't, period, because it does not exist.

    I haven't seen any real evidence posted. Admit it. John 5:28,29 interpreted literally or at "face value" as Ryrie insists destroys the dispensational insistence on the rapture, the earthly millennium, and all dispensational error.

    One of the worst implications of dispensationalism is that it states that the Church was left ignorant for 1800 years. One of the worst claims that dispensationalism makes is that the Church is guilty of robbing Israel of its promises. Very Sad!:tear:

    Why don't you address the point made in the OP about the Church as defined by the Southern Baptist Convention? That refutes dispensationalism and you cannot deny it.
     
  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Amy

    As I told JD regarding his post on ecclesiology in dispensationalism. Don't hold your breath!:love2:
     
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Carnal? If by that you mean earthly, then again, I say read the OT. It is clear that the kingdom is an earthly kingdom, complete with cities and land boundaries, animals, trees, crops, and the like.

    The KJV doesn't say that. The kingdom was promised to Israel, and unless God is a liar, it will be given to Israel.

    Yes, I will.

    It is all over the bible.

    Go back and read. I pointed out several passage where "hour" obviously does not mean "at one particular instant." I pointed out clearly that the first resurrection takes place in stages, and precedes the second.

    No it doesn't. That's nonsense.

    I don't think so at all. There were people who held to the dispensational premises all through church history.

    It is sad, but God promised Israel that he would restore them to the land, either he will or he lied. Which do you think?

    I am not a Southern Baptist, and I thought the OP was pretty silly. Truth is you can "prove" or "disprove" anything by selective quotes from people who were wrong.
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Read the OT. They are all over. But I will cite a few just for kicks:

    Jeremiah 31:31-40 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." 35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: 36 "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever." 37 Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the LORD. 38 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 "The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah. 40 "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."

    Micah 2:12-13 "I will surely assemble all of you, Jacob, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel. I will put them together like sheep in the fold; Like a flock in the midst of its pasture They will be noisy with men. 13 "The breaker goes up before them; They break out, pass through the gate and go out by it. So their king goes on before them, And the LORD at their head."

    Zechariah 12:8-10 "In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them. 9 "And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

    Amos 9:14-15 "Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them; They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit. 15 "I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them," Says the LORD your God.

    I could go on and on, but that will suffice for starters.
     
  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Based on your short snipet we have no idea if this is true. And even if PL is right broad brushing everyone one is just as disingenuous as posting your little snipet.
     
  10. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I'm sorry. I should have asked for the promises that have yet to be fulfilled. :eek:
     
  11. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland Active Member

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    Israel seems to play a pretty big role in Revelation. Is that the legitimate Israel, or an illegitimate one?
     
  12. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I have a copy of the Baptist Faith and Message (1963?) and there is no mention of the rapture or millenium in it.

    This is what is says regarding "last things".

     
  13. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Oh, okay. Here you go:

    Jeremiah 31:31-40 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." 35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: 36 "If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever." 37 Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the LORD. 38 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 "The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah. 40 "And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."

    Micah 2:12-13 "I will surely assemble all of you, Jacob, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel. I will put them together like sheep in the fold; Like a flock in the midst of its pasture They will be noisy with men. 13 "The breaker goes up before them; They break out, pass through the gate and go out by it. So their king goes on before them, And the LORD at their head."

    Zechariah 12:8-10 "In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them. 9 "And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

    Amos 9:14-15 "Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them; They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit. 15 "I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them," Says the LORD your God.

    I could go on and on, but that will suffice for starters.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    There has always been a latitude among Baptists about eschatology. That's why these guys coming along and attacking dispensationalism is disturbing. Jim says he doesn't think eschatology should be a test of fellowship. Apparently he has higher standards for mocking though.

    I wouldn't break fellowship over it, though it would have some implications for fellowship in some areas.
     
    #34 Pastor Larry, Dec 4, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2008
  15. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Amy, this is written to allow for a variation of views that 'in the least' confirm what is what is written in some manner. It is not written as a declation of one particular view.
     
  16. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    My dear brother pastor Larry, you are prolly correct that I know more than I am saying. I have been all through the numerous debates over eschatology. I grew up in the Church of England with historic premill,,when I returned to London from Wales, I joined the Plymoth Brethren, the fathers of dispensationalism,,you kw the old boys, charts and all, I then went to the Baptist Union because I wanted to enter ministry. I was still historical premill,,mxes of dispensationalism. I came to Canada and was introduced to amill to which I rebelled, but later came to realize it whilst Lorraine Boetner was teaching post millennialism! Weird, what?

    I think I know what most the schools teach, but I can't really get too worked up about that aspect of eschatology..the study of last things. A few of my churches were dispensational and I managed to live in peace with them...there was so much more to preach and besides they didn't even know when I crossed over to amillennial thought in a sermon. I decided then that these debates are meant for the clergy.

    Yes, I am playing a bit. Sorry.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  17. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Jim,

    Thanks for your comments in your last post. I really don't get bent out of shape about it. I have some pretty solid views (as you might can tell). In the end, I am not all that concerned about what people believe, though I think it is important.

    This debate is kind of like Calvinism to some degree. People trot out verses (like John5:28,29) as if the other side had never heard of it and will suddenly be stumped and convert. Truth is, we have interacted with all those verses and have tried to come to an honest understanding of them.

    It gets a little heated, which doesn't bother me. It's just part of life. The good thing about being pre-trib is that I am the only one who change my position if I am wrong.
     
  18. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Thanks guys. I don't think we should break fellowship over this subject either. I know the Lord is coming. I will spend probably the rest of my life trying to understand all the scriptures concerning it. Until then, I am but a lowly student. :tongue3:
     
  19. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    To add a few more to Pastor Larry's post about unfulfilled promises:
    These do not include the promises that have been fulfilled to the Nation - such as them eventually becoming a nation again, and they will become a nation in one day.

    First Part...
     
  20. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Since we know the early church, for the first 400+ years, was in the vast majority pre-mill or Chiliasism view (Christ's returning to rule an earthly Kingdom for 1000 years).

    Here are some names of those of the pre-mil view from our early church fathers and a link to the information.
    The first 9 are influential men for the first 300 years according to Chafer:
    1. Andrew
    2. Peter
    3. Philip
    4. Thomas
    5. James
    6. John
    7. Matthew
    8. Aristio
    9. John the Presbyter

    FIRST CENTURY:
    10. Clement of Rome A.D. 40-100
    11. Barnabas A.D 40-100
    12 Hermas A.D 40-150
    13 Ignatius A.D. 50-115
    14 Polycarp A.D. 70-167
    15. Papias A.D. 80-163

    SECOND CENTURY:
    1. Pothinus A.D. 87-177
    2. Justin Martyr A.D. 100-168
    3. Melito A.D. 100-170
    4. Hegisippus A.D. 130-190
    5. Tatian A.D. 130-190
    6. Irenaeus A.D. 140-202
    7. The Churches of Vienne and Lyons - a letter A.D. 177
    8. Tertulian A.D. 150-220
    9. Hippolytus A.D. 160-240
    10 Apollinaris A.D. 150-200

    THIRD CENTURY:
    1. Cyprian A.D. 200-258
    2. Commodian A.D. 200-270
    3. Nepos A.D. 230-280
    4. Coracion A.D. 230-280
    5. Victorinus A.D. 240-303
    6. Methodius A.D. 250-311
    7. Lactantius A.D. 240-330

    In the THIRD CENTURY there were only 4 who apposed this view:
    1. Caius (or Gaius), wrote about A.D. 210
    2, Clemens Alexandrinus, died A.D. 202, great influence on Origin
    3. Origin A.D. 185-254
    4. Dionysius A.D. 190-265

    Here is Chafer also:
    Historically, the doctrine of Pre-mil was cast aside when Christianity became a world power.

    This would appear to indicate that this was the apostles own teaching since it was so prevellent a view since the inception of the Church.

    It is of note what Chafer stated Here:
     
    #40 Allan, Dec 4, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2008
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