Stepping on my soap box

Oh no, NP,,,quote: Methinks we have the opportunity for a new Phelpsian church & website.

godhatestatoos.com

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Maybe the Islamists have the idea,,cut the arm off!

Methinks the one who judges me had better be perfect in every way. If one wants to sit me down and counsel with me, Jolly Good. I think that too is the Christian way and might be called discipline.

Cheers,

Jim

Oh yes, I am a socialist, but fought against communism and can't recall ever being an atheist!

 

One can establish another's spiritual in an honest, yet compassionate way, that conveys the ABSOLUTE truth as it is established by the Scriptures. I have witnessed all too many encounters that are harsh and are corrupted because there is no real belief that God actually saves... not me or any other person. If this pastor and his sidekick had shared concern, compassion, and shared Christ's love in salvation, the source of tears may have been from a different place... contrition.

 

ROTFL!!!:laugh:

 

Don't worry Jim. I will defend your right to bear "arms". :thumbs:

 

But you don't know how they shared.

(sidekick?)

 

MP...MP...Magnetic Pole...........I think I am getting it....Now if I can only get thes fingers to work together........

Cheers,

Jim

Forgot to say thank you, MP..I might need some defence come summer. Don't think I will ever bear arms again though.

 

Huh? You must be confusing me with someone else. I've never argued such a thing.

 

I am a bit late in coming in here. However, after reading the OP I was left feeling that there are some unanswered questions with respect to what happened with the pastor's visit to your sister's house.

First, in every visit I have ever made I always try to find out the person's spiritual condition by asking a few simple diagnostic questions. I don't just assume that every person I meet is lost and in need of hearing the gospel in order to be saved. In other words I have no way of knowing their spiritual condition until I ask a few simple questions.

With that said, I must ask, did this pastor ask your sister any diagnostic questions that would help him to determine her spiritual condition? If so, what did he ask her and what were her answers?

If she gave answers that indicated that she was lost then you can't blame the man for attempting to share the gospel with her. Now, did he do it in the right fashion? Was he sensitive to the information he had been given about her prior to the visit? I can't say because I was not there. However, if your sister's story is completely correct I'd say he blew it.

I am glad she found a church home and is actively serving the Lord and being ministered to now.

 

I still like the unwritten motto of te Salvation Army: Soup, Soap and Salvation,,,,,,,and in that order.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Hi donnA. Very good reply to the OP :thumbs:. However I must warn you, and it seems you have probably already figured this out, what you are saying is not going to be well received by many in the modern evangelical church. The modern church is too caught up with feelings and "not judging" that they have forgotten that the Gospel is a call to repentence and they have forgotten the very clear warnings of Scripture on this matter. The Bible is clear that true saving faith results in obedience to Christ (Jn 3:36, Gal 5:24, etc). Those who live in sin are not saved (1Jn 3:9-10). They are either decieved or are lying (Eph 5:3-6, 1Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, 1Jn 1:6-10). True saving faith makes a change, it results in a love for Christ and obedience to Him (Jn 14:15, 23, etc). True Christians follow Christ, they no longer live for themselves but for Christ (Jn 10:27, Lk 9:23). The fact that this has been forgotten maybe one reason that at the last judgment so many people will be surprised when they are turned away (Matt 7:21-23). Certainly Christians can, and do, fall into sin. Nobody is sinless on this side of eternity. However a true Christian does not, indeed cannot, practice sin (1Jn 3:4-10). Those who hold on to their sin, love their sin, and refuse to let it go are not Christians (2Pet 2:20-22).

 

I, like Bible-boy, and coming in late to this thread. I was struck by the young lady's resentment at being witnessed to by the pastor. If you are a believer, and someone begins what you recognize as a soul-winning conversation, how do you react? Do you get angry?

I've had it happen to me. My response was, "brothers, I appreciate what you're trying to do. But I already claim Christ as my Lord. Thanks for your concern for my soul."

I can understand Spinach's reaction because she's assuming the pastor judged her sister by her appearance. But no believer should get her nose bent out of shape over someone's attempt to witness to them.

 

At any time when any of us are sharing the GOspel, and we say "you are taking your kids to hell..." That is time to pack it in.

 

==You had me right up to the last statement (2 sentences in red). You cannot divide things up like that. What is on the inside is what comes out in words and deeds (Matt 15:18-20, Mk 7:21-23). If the inside is dead in sin then the outside will show that. If the inside is alive in Christ then the outside will show it. This is why the Scriptures warn that "faith, if it has no works, is dead" and cannot save (Jms 2:14-17). True saving faith does not mean that a person will be perfect, sinless, or will not struggle daily. What it does mean, however, is that a person will not practice their sin (1Jn 3:4-10). Those who give themselves over to sin need to doubt their salvation. There is a big difference between struggling, failing at times, and giving oneself over to sin. Hopefully you are aware of that and your division was just a case of poor wording.

 

What are your diagnostic questions?

My first one is, "do you give much thought to spiritual things?" This is one I ask to someone I really don't know well.

Another is "where are you spiritually right now?" Their answer will give you a much better picture.

Now, let's say they answer, "I'm a Christian," be careful. Christian means different things to different people. Your follow-up is, "what are you basing that on?" You'll learn if it's works or faith, or they don't have a clue.

You might also ask, "how do you think one comes into a right relationship with God?" They'll have opinions, and sometimes they're exactly right. These are probing questions, but they are non-threatening.

One night my visiting partner and I went to a home occupied by three bachelor brothers. After brief small talk, I began the questions. When I asked, "how do you think one comes into a right relationship with God," he answered "Repent of your sins and trust Christ for your salvation."

I was shocked. I wasn't ready for that. "Ah, uh, um, have you ever done that?"

'Naw," he said, "and don't plan to anytime soon. And if we do,we'll go to the church down the block to do it."

In addition to Bible-boy's diagnostic questions, I'd be interested in those of anybody else here.

 

Ah, but Martin, one must have a consistent testimony to be advising how it should be. Words are easy for some...both ways. It is like a preacher preaching with a finger in each ear.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I went back and read Spinach's OP, and I agree that the Pastor was over the line in his approach to Spinach's sister.

That said, I go back to Spinach's assertion that her sister was saved at age 10. I am really curious as to why the pastor would come to the conclusion that sister was lost. What led him to that conclusion? Was it only her appearance? Was there anything else?

I'm reminded of an evangelist's question "If you were on trial for being a believer, would there be enough evidence to convict you?"

Paul wrote to the Thessalonian church and cited some criteria by which he called them believers.

I Thess 1:3. "Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love, and patience of hope....'

Paul was able to judge the validity of their salvation, based on evidence. And we can't?

 

Two ways I view your post, I agree as one grows in grace they will find the things of this world/satan more and more detestable and they will begin to do good not of necessity, but because good is the desire of their hearts. There is no set time frame for this conversion, some convert quickly while others resist and take more time. I think God he acknowledges progress...

However, we all must give an account to God and not to man or the earthly Church. Paul himself said in 1 COR 4:1-6 "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The Church should not have to judge per se to deal with sin within it's ranks. We should instead deal with facts remembering how the Lord has forgiven us so we should likewise exercise a proper spirit when dealing with sin within our ranks. Paul tells us to use this attitude...

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

So I do agree that true saving faith makes a change however I don't see where scripture ever gives a timeline for which this change will take place. I believe Donna used a couple of years but I don't find that timeline supported in scripture.

 

I would if you made the assumption that I am not saved and never give me a chance to tell my testimony...

I usually ask, "do you know Jesus?" If you answer yes then I will ask something to the effect of, "what has he done for you lately?" This way you are beginning a productive conversation that can both tell you where the person stands and do they understand why they stand that way.