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Praying for God to Save Someone

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Tom Butler, Feb 3, 2009.

  1. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    web, this is one of the reasons I said you'll have to get in line behind me while I get some answers from the Lord Jesus someday.

    God said he does not change. God gave Hezekiah more years of life after Hezekiah prayed. You and I believe both are true. How can that be?

    I'm guilty of emphasizing the scriptures which support what I believe. I also believe that scriptures which seem to contradict actually don't, and that's where I struggle, sometimes. How to resolve them.

    I believe God does not change. I believe in prayer. I believe God answers prayer. As I said, the first thousand years are mine. Get in line.
     
  2. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    Tom

    I am about as non calvanist as a Baptist can be and the OP does not make me uncomfortable at all. Since I have been on the BB I realize that calvanist and non Calvanist REALLY misunderstand one another. For example, when I read the OP I thought, "Boy that will make the Calvanist uncomfortable". Oh well, we'll get together in Heaven and laugh at how wrong we both were.

    As far as praying and Hezakiah go, we have to chosse one of two sides.

    God changed his mind or God Lied to Samuel.

    Which do choose?

    I belive he changed his mind, sort of. I don't know if I can explain this on line but I'll try. God knows all. Yet man has a free will. Remember God knows the outcome, but gives us the choice anyway. He sent Samuel to Hez. with his message. Knowing that Hez would pray and he would extend the years. This was all his plan yet Hez had the choice of praying or not. Thus God's plan from the beginning was done, God did not change, yet the prayer did influence the outcome. Just because God knew Hez would pray, does not mean he forced Hez to do so.

    Now I've got myself confused.
     
  3. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    I hope you and Tom don't mind me making a comment before I have to log off and do some work.

    First, God didn't lie if you take the unstated yet implied expectation - "you will die unless you seek my face". Some folks object to this understanding and so be it.

    But more importantly, we can take this complex issue and simplify it by splitting our understanding into 1) the eternal and 2) the temporal. In eternity, God predetermined the outcome of Hezekiah's life, and also predetermined the way He would achive the outcome. In time, from the human viewpoint, the outcome was contingent upon Hezekiah's prayer.

    The thing is that the matter was both predetermined AND contigent. In the great confessions this is called "secondary causes", and represents the greatness of God in not merely forcing His will upon the creature, but using the actions and choices of the creature to accomplish His predetermined ends. Awesome, isn't it?
     
  4. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    Kinda sorta what I was trying to say but butchered it up.
     
  5. mima

    mima New Member

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    The subject is one dear to my heart. And while I have had many experiences I will just described the most recent one. I take great pride in being a "church hopper", and while I am very Southern Baptist I still like to understand what others believe consequently I visit many churches. Recently my wife and I walked into a church and sit down and as we were being greeted by people in the church who knew us I happened to glance forward at the back of a young man's head and immediately I was under conviction to pray for this individual's salvation. As we settled into the church service and the singing began , I begin to pray for this young man's salvation, I then enlisted my wife who was on my right hand side to pray with me about this young man. Then after a period of time I ask a friend of mine who was sitting on my left to help pray for this man's salvation. We continued praying for most of the service and when the invitation was given this young man went forward and received the Lord Jesus Christ.
    I have had similar experiences before and I have also had periods of almost uncontrollable weeping over someone's salvation, that is seeing a lost person come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Has anyone had similar experiences?
     
  6. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    Yes, I have had similar experiences.

    By the way, I trust your "church hopping" does not interfere with your duties and support of your own local assembly?
     
  7. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    God says he does not change. He can't change his mind or he is not perfect. You are not addressing the issues - change does imply imperfection. Change is not needed for a perfect Being.

    Num23.19 "God is not a man, that He should lie,
    Nor a son of man, that He should repent;
    Has He said, and will He not do it?
    Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?


    Mal 3.6 "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed."


    James 1.17 "Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow




    No, it's not to deny His word. When God seems to react to someone's pleas, it is man's view of God. Otherwise, one would have to conclude we have a God who conforms to man.

    If God changes his mind and reacts to man, what unchangeable thing/person exists in the universe against which change is measured? There would be none, and there would be no absolute immutability.



    That is not God changing his nature/mind. Creating the universe did not change God.


    Buddhism? There is no god in Buddhism.

    The Holy Spirit indwells man but is not part of man's nature and is not reacting to time.

    I've had this discussion before and you are one of the few people who insists that God changes his mind. The others I've discussed this with have been open theists or leaning toward/defending open theism, so your position is not the norm. You act like my position is unusual, but it is not.

    I have some links to articles on this that explain the passages open theists use to defend their view that God changes his mind.
     
    #47 Marcia, Feb 4, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2009
  8. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Paul also writes that he could wish himself accursed if it would result in the salvation of the Jews. Now, if you believe in a limited atonement, does Paul's statement not make him more loving and more gracious than Jesus since Paul was willing to die for people whom Jesus did not die for? There are difficulties on either side.
     
  9. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Jim, who are you talking to? I am not Calvinist and do not believe in limited atonement.
     
  10. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Marcia, the quote was from the opening post made by Tom Butler. I quoted from his post and was responding to it. I pretty much assume that you do not hold to limited atonement. Sorry for any confusion. Oh, and I am not Jim!:laugh:
     
  11. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Sorry for all the mistakes - yikes! :tonofbricks:

    I don't know why, but I got it in my head that the j after "swaim" was "Jim." You know, as soon as I posted that, I realized from other threads that you would know I probably don't hold to Limited Atonement, and also I suddenly realized that I was not sure you are named "Jim." Sorry for the confusion! :wavey:
     
  12. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    No problem!
     
  13. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    In the human sense (what you were referring to anthromorphism) He doesn't change. I'm sorry, but I think you are talking past me as I have addressed the issue.
    Scripture is God breathed, so it is not man's, but His. He says He relents. You say He doesn't. I'll take His word over yours.
    ...but it is change, nonetheless, something you adamantly maintain God cannot do.
    Buddhism probably wasn't the best example, I'll give you that. I was referring to the time elment in buddhism.
    There are more than a few on this thread that agree that what God says is true. It's not the norm to dismiss this, and is actually quite unusual. If one holds to sola scruptura, one cannot dismiss that HE has stated HE relents. Man didn't say it, God did. Like Tom and I have stated (both hold to different soteriological views, btw), it's a mystery that cannot be fugured out....yet you maintain you have done just that. That's presumptious, IMO.
     
  14. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    And He says he doesn't in one of the quotes I posted (relent and repent are often from the same word)



    Creating the world means God is changing? No, it doesn't. I don't know you use this to support the view God changes his mind.


    And didn't I say I had articles that explain the apparent contradictions that God says he does not change and yet man sees God as changing in certain passages? Notice that those passages are all from man's view.

    You still have not addressed the issue of God changing his mind and how this shows he is imperfect. You won't admit that changing one's mind means one has to go from plan A to plan B.
     
  15. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    http://www.gotquestions.org/God-change-mind.html
     
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    So God was sorry for stating He was going to destroy the Israelites for cause...He felt regret...and this is not changing your mind?
     
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    He said He doesn't change His mind like man does, not that He doesn't change His mind. Since Scripture doesn't contradict, you can maintain He doesn't change His mind from the many passages where He states just that, or the one where He states He doesn't. It's up to you, I guess.
    This will now be the second time I am stating I don't use this verse to prove God changes His mind. I don't need that one, there are straight forward ones stating just that. I simply used that verse to show that God reacts to man, something you have stated is impossible.
    I have addressed it already, you just won't have any of it. Go back and find it. You can state God's decision was "imperfect" to grant Hezekiah an additonal 15 years of life, or to not destroy the Israelites and Ninevah, but you are much braver than I. I will not call God imperfect, nor what He has decided to do. This Scripture alone is proof it's not imperfect since God is perfect.
     
  18. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    We know God feels pain (do not grieve the Holy Spirit); no, this does not mean changing his mind. It means regret, sorrow. God was sorry at man's wickedness on earth and sent the Flood. He knew all along man would become wicked and he would send the Flood but the Bible says he felt sorrowful. This is not changing one's mind.
     
  19. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    If God changes his mind, he is not perfect. Why does God need to change his mind? This would mean he did not foresee something. How can God change since He is outside time?

    Neo-orthodoxy sees God in time and outside time. They believe God changes, grows, and learns. They believe God is affected by man. This is not the God of the Bible.


    You are implying God is imperfect by saying he changed his mind because if God change his mind that means that his original decision to take H's life was the wrong one, so he changed his mind and added 15 yrs. to his life.

    I don't think God ever changed his mind. He knew from eternity past that Hezekiah would ask for 15 yrs. and that He would grant it. There was no changing of mind.

    I am guessing you do not believe God is immutable.
     
  20. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/559-does-god-change-his-mind
     
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