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Deception and OSAS

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, May 26, 2009.

  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Luk 17:12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
    Luk 17:13 And they lifted up [their] voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
    Luk 17:14 And when he saw [them], he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
    Luk 17:15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
    Luk 17:16 And fell down on [his] face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
    Luk 17:17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where [are] the nine?
    Luk 17:18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
    Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.


    One saved, nine lost, all had their sins forgiven by the Master.

    :jesus:
     
  2. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    The "Or, otherwise" is not found in the passage. This is conjecture. Just let the text say what it says.

    "....our currently sins shall lead us to death, which is speaking of spiritual, will be end up in everlasting fire".

    More conjecture. James syas nothing about spiritual death.

    :jesus:
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Christ did not say "if you do not forgive your neighbor you were never forgiven in the first place" as much as it might be fun to imagine this was His "OSAS" affirming position.

    Rather Christ said in the story "I FORGAVE YOU ALL" and then speaks to the fact that ALL the debt fully forgiven is NOW to be RETURNED to the fully forgiven servant.

    Only "One Gospel" -- only "ONE way to be forgiven" as it turns out. Much to the dissappointment of the OSAS view.

    And of course the unforgiving servant (who was not in jail and not paying back the debt that he owed) was forced to then deal with the debt RETURNED to him.

    A more devastating case against OSAS could hardly be imagined.

    Christ then affirms this "SO shall My Father do" (So as in "So as we saw in this illustration" where debt is RETURNED to the fully forgiven) "if each one of you does not forgive his brother from his heart".

    A more devastating SUMMARY by Christ debunking OSAS could hardly be imagined.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Wonderful - thank you for explaining that point. Amen.

    The prodigal son did not receive any benefit at all from the Father until he chose to repent and return. "He is able to graft them in again IF they do not Continue in unbelief" Rom 11.

    Had he stayed in the pig pen - he would have eventually died there.

    God weeps over the lost "not willing for any to perish" as we see in 2Peter 3 - but they are "lost still".

    Amen - all true. God is continually calling the lost to salvation and even the somewhat lax among His children (Heb 12) back to repentance and faith.

    Paul points out in 2Cor 7:10 that the expelling of the wrong doer in 1Cor 5 produced "Godly sorrow works repentance leading to salvation". Paul never argues "saved while in rebellion".

    My argument is not that He does not go after them - for He says in Romans 11 "He is able to graft them in AGAIN IF they do not continue in unbelief".

    The story is not of the form "while working in the pig pen the prodigal suddenly found himself at home with his father". The son had to come to his senses while IN the pig pen and CHOOSE to return to the Father.

    When he returned home - he found the Father was waiting.

    Had he stayed away - the life of one "removed" as Romans 11 would have continued to be his.

    Thank you for those thoughts. Clearly we agree that the Father is willing to reach out to those who have been "Severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" for "He is able to graft them in again IF they do not continue in unbelief".

    But my argument is that while they remain outside, and removed - they are as lost as the next guy.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Enow

    Enow New Member

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    Not sure how the inaction of a believer can be jeopardizing eternal security so as to prove he or she was never a believer in the first place to fit the OSAS view. If we return to the milk of the word in how one is to be saved, then we can see the forgiving part is requirement for "following" Jesus.

    Until all the debt was paid for... to every last penny. So if there is no getting our of hell, then how can such a debt be paid in full if God says that it will be paid in full?

    As the Father will chasten every child He receives, even the disobedient ones, for they have been bought with a price and sealed as His, the power of God in salvation, then we can apply these scriptures to having that payment in full: Hebrews 12:1-29 & 1 Corinthians 3:10-23. If you consider what it is that seperates the vessels of honour from the vessels of dishonour... and how those that do this below...

    Matthew 5:19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Then we can see how God will judge the House of God at the rapture event:

    2 Timothy 2: 10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

    So even as those that had their faith overthrown or have fallen away from the faith, they are still His in God's house: the question is... will they purge themselves of iniquity before that judgment falls in time to be a vessel unto honour to obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus WITH eternal glory OR will they continue to be a vessel unti dishonour in iniquity and obtain the salvation which is in Jesus Christ WITHOUT eternal glory?

    2 Timothy 2: 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
     
  6. Enow

    Enow New Member

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  7. Enow

    Enow New Member

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    In that, we agree. However, once the doors are shut, the first inheritance can enver be had again. Those left behind and those new believers coming out of the great tribulation can never have that first inheritance.

    But the next guy was never bought with a price and sealed as His. His promise is that all those that believe in the Son shall be raised up in the last day, but of which last day will the believer be raised up in, seeing how there will be another set of believers at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ?

    I still maintain by His grace that there are three harvests that makes up the whole of the Kingdom of God ( Matthew 13:33) as the first harvest comes with a meal only; as in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

    This is why the voice of the bridegroom and the bride was heard no more in fallen Babylon in Revelation for the doors has been shut. The call is to be ready and be found abiding in Him when the Bridegroom appears for the Bride so that the elect.. as being called the elect will obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus WITH eternal glory to be vessels unto honour in God's House.

    May all those wake up before they find that their house is falling down.

    :sleep: :tonofbricks:
     
  8. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    This is an example of how bad theology begets bad theology. The pre-trib rapture error begets errors such as that there will be another set of believers after the 1000 year reign. All of those that are Christs will reign with Him. It's absolutely remarkable and sad to see people wrest the scriptures this way.
     
  9. Enow

    Enow New Member

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    After the 1000 year reign of Christ, Satan will be loosed from the pit and cause many to go astray in this perfect kingdom to rebel against the Lord. Those that remain loyal to the Lord is of the last harvest.

    1 Corinthians 15: 20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    That is when Satan, his angels, and death will be cast into the lake of fire.

    Just because you do not understand what I am sharing by His grace, I am not going to hold that against you. Neither will He.

    The call is to be ready now and abiding in Him by keeping the faith which is the good fight as we place our trust in Our Good Shepherd to help us to do this so that when the Bridegroom appears, He will take His chaste bride home.
     
  10. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    I Cor. 15 is about the resurrection at the second (and only future) coming or appearing of Jesus Christ. When He returns with His holy angels in all His glory, He will raise the dead (all of the dead) and judge them. He shall separate His sheep from the goats, placing His sheep on the right hand side, the goats on the left. The goats will then be told, depart ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. The sheep will be told to come and inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world.
     
  11. Enow

    Enow New Member

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    Then answer this riddle here. If you can't. Trust Jesus to help you. I did.

    Revelation 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    The answer He has shown me was...

    This was the first resurrection of those that came out of the great tribulation since those martyred were those that did not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

    Where are the Old Testament saints? Where are the disciples?

    When Jesus made a promise that all those that believe in Him, He shall lose nothing, but raise them up in the last day, how does that apply to those at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ?

    Same way with the term of the first resurrection. It was the first resurrection of those that came out of the great tribulation. Those others that died that did not match those characteristics.. will be raised up later.

    So how does the last day is applied as Jesus promised? It is applied by which group of believers they are in. His Word will be true for the first, second, and third harvest. The first harvest shows judgment on the House of God. The second harvest shows those coming out of the great tribulation. The third harvest are those that did not rebel with Satan against the Lord at the end of 1000 year reign of Christ.

    Incidentally, believing in the rapture is not a requirment to be raptured. The requirement is keeping the faith in Jesus Christ as we trust Him as Our Good Shepherd as well as Our Saviour to prevent us from falling and present us faultless to His glory. Amen.

    Jude 1: 24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

    Colossians 1: 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    :jesus:
     
  12. RevJWWhiteJr

    RevJWWhiteJr New Member

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    Once saved, always saved

    Once saved, always saved.

    I never did like that terminology. For years, in its stead, I have used the phrase, Once a child of God, always a child of God.

    Jesus said to Nicodemus, "Ye must be born again". With that statement he cemented the doctrine of OSAS into our belief system, if salvation is in any way related to being born again and becoming a child of God.

    There is only one thing Nicodemus could have understood about the process being taught to him by Jesus after the process was complete. After being reborn in the Spirit, as was Jesus' lesson, by equating the process to its physical counterpart, Jesus permanentized the final state of the rebirthing (born again, saved) process.

    Even in Nicodemus' time, (or especially for him at that time) he would have distinctly understood that,,,

    After your physical birth, (and the process begins at conception, of course) you can not change who your biological parents are. There is no condition or process that can or will alter the individuals that sired and conceived a child in the physical. No matter what type of fellowship (or lack thereof) my children and I have or do not have, in relationship they will always remain my children.

    By Jesus' own comparison, likening the two processes to each other in example, JESUS declares the Spiritual process as permanent as the physical.

    Call him mistaken if you wish. I will accept his declaration.

    All of the passages in the scripture that "appear" to teach otherwise, are speaking of another subject that no one wants to address. It is not our relationship that is question, only our fellowship or the lack thereof. (Hint) Hebrews chapter three, (v6)(vs12-14) Revelation (ch 2 & 3).

    Oh, and the New Testament mention of becoming one of the "Son's of God"? That is more awsome than anyone realizes. The other one is the mention of becoming a "New Creature in Christ", I shouldn't even mention that in this post.

    PS If salvation can be lost, what is everlasting or eternal about it. By the scriptures own accumulative description, we are forever saved, or we were not saved and are not saved at all.
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    How True.

    And they could easily see their error by simply noticing the obvious point that the "resurrection" that we see in 1Thess 4 taking place at the rapture event where "The DEAD in Christ rise first" -- is also seen by John in the book of Revelation - and is called "The FIRST resurrection" Rev 20:5 pointing to the "BLESSED AND HOLY" state of the saints raised in the first resurrection and adding "over THESE the second death has no power".

    That first resurrection seen in 1Thess 4 (the resurrection of the saints) is what starts the 1000 years. The second resurrection marks the end of the 1000 years and is the resurrection of the wicked - the resurrection of those over whom the second death DOES have power.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
    28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'


    29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
    30 ""But he was unwilling and went
    and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
    31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
    32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave,
    I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

    33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave,
    in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
    34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until
    he should repay all that was owed him.



    32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
    33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave,
    in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
    34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until
    he should repay all that was owed him.


    35 "" My heavenly Father
    will also do the same to you[/b], if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

    Christ did not say "if you do not forgive your neighbor you were never forgiven in the first place" as much as it might be fun to imagine this was His "OSAS" affirming position.




    You are correct that the OSAS position does not allow for what the text states.

    You are correct that this text does not allow for the case where the servant is never a servant of the Lord - and never forgiven under the "ONE Gospel" which is the only way to BE forgiven.


    Correct again. The forgiving others part comes only AFTER the Lord has compassion and FIRST gives us -- once we are "forgiven ALL" we then walk in that condition and are obligated then and only then to "forgive others AS we have BEEN forgiven".

    It is the Christian walk that can only come AFTER being born-again and fully forgiven.

    Failing at that point - as Christ shows in the parable - totally debunks OSAS.

    indeed Paul urged living Christians - to purge themselves of error in THIS life.

    He is not preaching to the dead.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    That's one thing I've never understood about those that will run to Rev. 19 and 20 in support of pre-trib rapture. The first resurrection, mentioned before the 1000 year reign, mentions the partakers over whom the second death has no power. Why mention this if some at the end of the 1000 years will be in the same boat? It doesn't make sense. The first resurrection mentioned there seems to point to the elect who are raised to life everlasting, the second to everlasting punishment. I'll admit I don't understand all of those things in Revelation, but the clear teaching of the gospel accounts and epistles seem to support this. The problem is when we take a dogmatic position on Revelation and then try to force the epistles to agree with it.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Works for Adam and Eve.

    The Gospels even go so far as to call Adam "the son of God" -- something I would not feel comfortable doing since it would lead to some confusion with most hearers - but the point in the gospel is that Adam and Eve were children of God in that respect. Created sinless and perfectly in harmony with their heavenly Father by virtue of creation. No need to "Be restored" and no need to be "redeemed" back again. And indeed to be 'born again' as children of God -- with a new nature that is created in harmony with God -- that must now do battle with the sinful nature that remains (as we see in Romans 7).

    But after the fall -- they were cursed with all kinds of problems that needed to be fixed.

    Still they did not have to be "uncreated" to become lost and to need "aboption". God came to rescue his erring children -- to redeem them to place them back in relationship to Him by adopting the lost.

    In that Gospel solution - and in that solution alone - we find forgiveness for sins - full and complete.

    Which is the point Jesus gets to in Matt 18 in his parable about "forgiveness revoked".


    It remains everlasting life - and it remains with us to "persevere" in choosing to accept it.

    Which is why the Bible keeps arguing so as to motivate the saints to "persevere in doing good" Romans 2:6.

    Had the servant of Matt 18 -- persevered in that condition of gratefullness over having been forgiven so as to let it extend out to his fellow slaves - he never would have experienced "forgiveness revoked".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    the bible motivates us to continue in well doing in order to serve and please God, not to get to heaven. Why do you do good works in the first place? Because you will receive something or rather because you love Him that commanded you to do so.
     
  18. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    I learned that the doctrine of Seventh Day Adventist, that they teaching when Jesus comes at second coming, all saints will stay up in heaven for 1000 years, whilst old earth is being empty. Satan and fallen angels are chained in bottomless pit for 1000 years.

    Thier doctrine doesn't make sense to me. I do not agree with them.

    2 Peter 3:10-13 telling us, this old earth shall be burned away follow at Christ's coming, so, we are eager looking for new heavens and a new earth will be introduce just right after old earth burned at Christ's coming, not wait 1000 years later after Christ's coming. New earth shall be introduce follow after second coming and the judgment day.

    I was used premill myself before. Now I am amill.

    Notice in Rev. 20:4 says: "and I saw the SOULS of them..." This verse speaking of saints' souls are now in the heaven since they were killed by persecutions for not worshipping the wicked world system. Saints are now reigning with Christ in heaven for a thousand years, that called "the first resurrection", which speaking of spiritual.

    Notice in John 5:25 says: "Verily, verily, I say iunto you, The hour is coming, and NOW IS, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

    This is speaking of the first resurrection, which is spiritual, since Christ has sent the Holy Spirit upon Christians at their salvation, that He made us quickened (Eph. 1:1-6). At first, we were dead in sins without have spirit. Then, when we were born again, received Holy Spirit, Christ quickened in us. Quicken means to make us life.

    John 5:25 already happening right now since Early Church to present time.

    "First resurrection' is a type of salvation and eternal life.

    "Second Death" is opposite of "First Resurrection", it means, death and everlasting punishment.

    Rev. 20:4-6 described of first resurrection and second resurrection. They have the part of first resurrection, that the second death have no power over first resurrection. Because Christ already overcame death at his resurrection. That why Christ became the firstfruits of the resurrection. Verse 4 gives us the picture that saints now have their first resurrection, their souls are now in the heaven since after they were killed for their testimony that they refused to worship the wicked world system. Many saints were persecuted and killed in the past. Thier souls are now reignin in the heaven with Christ for a thousand years, that is called 'first resurrection'.

    'A thousand years' or 'the thousand years' symbolizes as temporary period, it could be last for few thousand years. Church have been reigning with Christ for almost 2,000 years now.

    "the rest of the dead" of Rev. 20:5, which speaking of physical bodies that saints' body are still in the graves during a thousand years.

    Also, all unbelievers do not have the first resurrection, because they reject Christ, and did worshipping the wicked world system. Therefore, they are remain always dead, their souls are now in hell, awaits for the great white throne comes, then hell and dead shall be cast away into lake of fire, where all unbelievers' body and soul both shall be cast away into lake of fire, that is called the second death.

    By the way, Bible teaches us there will be the only ONE future resurrection of just and wicked follow at the last day of this age follow at His coming in John 5:28-29; and John 6:39,40,44, & 54.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  19. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    RAdam,

    If a person desires to have eternal life. Then, in Rev. 22:14 says, "Blessed are they that DO his commandments, that they may right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." This is very clear speaking of salvation is conditional.

    Well as what Christ told to the rich man of Luke 18:18-22, if he desires to have eternal life, then person have to give up his own ways, and to obey His commandments, and to follow Him. This passage clearly teaching us that we can have eternal life, by obey and follow Christ.

    Salvation is conditional.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  20. Enow

    Enow New Member

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    Then explain these groups of believers coming out of the great tribulation where the sun does not light on them any more nor any heat? How can they be the same people that will reign as priests and kings with Christ unless these saints were different from those resurrected from being martyred out of the great tribulation to reign with Christ on the earth??

    Revelation 7:13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    Since that throne is being seen by John in Heaven, how is it that they hunger nor thirst anymore unless they were hungering and thirsting after righteousness when they were alive on earth, thus suggesting a group of wayward believers that were climbing up another way as many that does, going after the "Spirit of God" in having a hunger for more of God; for more of that spiritual encounter of that touch. They are forgetting God's promise for all those that come to Jesus in John 6:35. That is because these were the other sheep that did not follow His voice but a stranger's voice.

    So that means judgment falls on the House of God before that time of the great tribulation as obviously, these wayward saints do not get resurrected with those honourable saints that were martyred for keeping the commandments of God.. that Jesus is the way to the Father.. not the Holy Spirit.

    Because all invitations points to the Son as there are false spirits in the world that would seek to come inbetween the believer and Christ Jesus, thus fulfilling the description of a thief from John 10:7-9, we that are being a chaste bride to Christ shall not by His grace seek another spirit to receive.

    And if there are saints that partake of the tree of life in order to have eternal life, then does this hint of the kind of inheritance to those at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ that remain loyal to Christ? Doesn't those that survive the great tribulation markless, shall be the people from which generations come from as those resurrected will reign and minister with Christ to those people?

    As we all prophesy in part and know in part, I am not holding it against anyone for not seeing what I know by His grace.:thumbs:
     
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