Arguments for a Post Trib. Rap.

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation,

and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Will it be an "Abomination" to Satan, or the AC, to have him sitting in the temple, professing to be god,

Or would the "Abomination" be to God???

for the overspreading of abominations,

explains the "Reason" the "HE" shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, make it desolate,


and in the midst of the week, for (because of) the overspreading of abominations, "HE" shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, "HE" shall make it desolate, even until the consummation,

It's "BECAUSE" it's an abomination to God, that "HE" brings it to desolate.

"Shall confirm for one week", means "ONE WEEK", not a half week.

 

All who now proclaim their faith in Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God shall all see just how the rapture/endtimes will play out. I think all of us are going to be very surprised for just a split second and then humbly repent of our pride and accept the open arms of our Savior in the air. Those of us that will not shed our pride will be gathered with the tares and well...... you know the rest of the story.

 

stillearning

You stated earlier that you believed Matt. 24 supports your position of pre-trib rapture.

I asked about that, but you must have missed it, (or I missed your response) so I'll ask again.

Jesus says in Matt. 24 that.....

(1) His disciples will go through persecution and the ones who "endure to the end" will be saved

(2) After this tribulation, Jesus will be seen returning in the clouds with the shout of the trumpet

(3) At His return, Jesus will send His angels to collect His "elect" from the four corners of the earth.

Please explain how the statements of Jesus in Matt. 24 supports the pre-trib. position.

peace to youraying:

 

I'll give you my take on it.

Mt 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

The church knows the rapture/second coming are the only two appearances of the Messiah,

anyone coming to make a treaty is not the "messiah", but for people who don't believe the messiah has already come, they could believe this "christ is Christ".

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not:
(as being the Messiah)

if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
(as being the Messiah)

This "Strong delusion" God sent is the AC riding his "white horse" appearing to be the messiah, working "lying signs and wonders". (Jews require a sign)

The AC is given power over all kindren, tongues and nations, and he "PREVAILS" over all, saints included,

But Jesus said as long as the "COMFORTER" is in the world, Satan could never prevail, and when we resist him, he must "flee",

Obviously, that don't occur during the trib, the "HE" who is "Taken out of the way" is the "Comforter", and Rapture of the church.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The trib is "Sandwiched" between the rapture and second coming, as well as the "lamb's marriage supper".

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

Mt 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

One of the big problem with folks who believe the church will enter the trib and satan will have power over the church saints,

is the fact that it's not church saints satan is given power over but the "BODY OF CHRIST".

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ,

If you believe that, I have a bridge in "Brooklyn, NY" I'd like to sell you. :laugh:

As long as the "Comforter", "Body of Christ" is "IN THE WORLD",

Satan can't have "power" over "ALL",

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And there are a dozen other ways/reasons the "PRE TRIB RAPTURE" can be explained.

 

Gone three days, and still no answer. Anyone?!?

 

And you haven' presented even 0ne.

 

Me4Him,

You say to candyjd on Matt. 24:5 "I am Christ" deceive many.

This verse 5 already happening many centuries ago since First Century. in 1 John 4:2-3 telling us, we hear that in the last time, antichrist shall come, even, we already seen so many antichrists out there in the world today. These antichrists who deny that Christ came in flesh that He is God. Also, Matt. 24:5 tells us, many people claim to us that they are Christian, but they deceive us. There are too many hyprocrites out there. Matt. 24:5 already happening long time ago since First Century to present day. Matt. 24:5 doesn't prove the proof of pretrib.

You do need a clear solid verse in Matthew 24 to prove pretrib rapture.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,

There are many "Sons of God" in the world, but they are not "THAT SON OF GOD", Jesus.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Jesus audience had never heard of a Rapture, if he had mentioned it, they wouldn't have known what he was referring too.

You won't get the whole picture out of one chapter, one verse, it's "here a little, there a little", scattered throughout the scriptures.

 

Tell ya what, I'll let you have the Brooklyn bridge just for "Shipping/Handling",

That's a better deal than Obama's "healthcare". :thumbs: :laugh: :laugh:

 

I still haven't had my point about the first coming being completed at the ascension addressed...but them the breaks around here. I say a lot of stuff that never gets addressed. :saint:

I will toss out there that I don't buy a literal 7 year tribulation btw. Its really hard to locate that in Scripture. The synthesis of Daniel and Revelation is a tough enough step...particularly given that there is a strong preterist view of the events Daniel is speaking of being accomplished prior to Christ and as a precusor to the Messiah.

But I'm just tossing that out there :smilewinkgrin:

 

IF it is the disciples themselves Jesus refered to will be saved on the merit of enduring to the end, what is the end and how shall they be saved? That must mean the end already happened unless it is yet to come, in that case Jesus was not refering to the actual disciples themselves since the end hasn't happened yet.

Darren

 

To tell you the truth, "Preterist" are 50% right.

They "SEE" the "Spiritual" application of prophecy, but not the "literal",

and most of the church "SEE" the "literal" application but not the "Spiritual".

I'll give you a few examples.

Lu 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Light=Spirit, Satan's "Spiritual" power over man through sin was "cast down" by Jesus.

However satan still has access to heaven to accuse us before "God".


At the start of the trib, satan is "Literally" "cast down" from heaven forever losing his access to heaven.

Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Example two.

Da 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. (Roman Empire)


41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. (Revived Roman Empire/Trib period)

Da 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:

In the "days of the Roman Empire", Jesus set up the "Spiritual Kingdom" of the Church.

In the "days of the Revived Roman Empire", he will set up the "literal Kingdom" of the Mill reign.

The disciples were expecting the "literal Elijah", the one who went to heaven in a whirwind, but he didn't "Literally" show up, however he did show up "Spiritually" as "John the Baptist".

The "Literal Elijah" will show up during the trib, he is one of the Two witnesses. (Moses)

A single prophecy can be interpreted "Spiritually" to cover Jesus's first coming,

OR, "literally" to cover his second coming,

and there are many such prophecies, I'm still discovering new one.

Here's a short list of the most "commonly known" prophecies.

http://i25.tinypic.com/1znaptj.jpg

 

Who are the "elect" that Jesus mentions will be gathered from the four corners of the earth?

Who are those that "endure to the end"?

Who are those Jesus says will suffer persecution?

peace to youraying:

 

Jesus was referring to those who will endure persecution during the tribulation that comes just prior to His return.

And I didn't say they "merit"ed their salvation. Perseverence is a mark of a true believer. They are one of the "elect".

peace to youraying:

 

I see it that the tribulation saints that survive and live to the end of the tribulation period, although suffering pain, hurt and persecution from the AC will be rescued from any further torment from the AC when Christ physically returns to fight and defeat the AC. That's the context I see "saved" in by that verse. The end is the end of the tribulation, the enduring is surviving through the hardships and torments and the saving is physically saving them from what they have endured through those years of pain and struggle.

Darren

 

Good reply!! I agree 100%!!

:type:

Darren

 

Darrenss1,

How can you be sure that "Tribulation saints" will have another second chance to be saved during so called, "seven year of Tribulation Period" after they "miss" Rapture passed? You have to prove us a verse to support your opinion.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Stilllearning,

Your comment on Matt. 24:9:

Jesus said to the disciples, "Ye", "You" find 21 times in context of chapter 24, is not just focus on the "Jews" only, remember disciples were Christians and Christ's followers. Same as we are Christians & Christ's followers. Clearly this chapter is given message to all Christians both Jews and Gentiles.

The context of Matt. 24:4-14 covers this present age from Early Church to the end of the age at second advent. Matt. 24:9 already happening long time ago since Early Christians were suffering and killed by persecutions. Even, also Matt. 24:9 apply to us of present age that anyone of us who is faithful and serve the Lord are suffering the persecutions over the world. Many Christains are already suffering by Muslims in Middle East. Matt. 24:9 is now currently effect upon Church will be continue till the end of this present age follow at Christ's coming.

Your comment on Matt. 24:13:

Matthew 24:13 is not limited to the Jews only in such as squeeze into limited time of so called, "seven year of Tribulation period". Matt. 24:13 apply to both Jews and Gentiles Christians of all ages that Christ tells us, anyone do is endure till to the end shall be saved.

Of course, OldRegular will not agree with me on Matt. 24:13. Because he believes in security salvation(because, himself is Calvinist).

Matt. 24:13 is talking about anyone who is facing trials, persecutions, they have to patience with them, and endure them till their death or Lord comes, then their souls shall be saved. (Most believe this speaking of their physical body shall be saved at Second Advent). But, this telling us very clear about our souls that we must endure throughout all our life while facing problems, trials, tibulations, and persecutions, do not quit or give up in the midst of them, we must be endure till we die, or Lord comes, then our souls shall be saved. That means, if we quit in the midst of trails, tribulations, and turn back to world again, and we die without being endure then, we shall not be saved, shall be end up in everlasting fire.

By the way, I agree with your comment on Matt. 24:40,42, Matt. 24:28; and Luke 17:34-37. You are right, these are not speaking of rapture, as what Tim LaHaye's popular novel book - "Left Behind" interpreting that, 'took away' which represents Christians is 'raptured', as 'left behind' represent unsaved will be left on earth to faced so called, "seven year of Tribulation period".

Matt. 24:40-42 speaking of these people who are not watch and ready shall be end up as "thief" for their everlasting destruction-cast awya into everlatsing fire.

I understand Matt. 24:28 of "eagles' or "vulture" are represent as angels. When Christ comes, he shall send angels to gathering all nations with supernatural power of force. All angelks will fly down to grab all unsaved people over the world, who are not watch and ready shall be end up as "thief", to cast their souls away into everlasting fire.

Matt. 24:40-42; Luke 17:34-37 both are focus on Second Adevent, the same event.

Nowhere in Matthew 24 gives us the hint that, there is another "secert coming" or "rapture" will be occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier prior "His coming". The whole context of chapter 24 always focus on one future coming shall be follow at the end of this present age/wolrd.

Your comment on Matt. 24:31:

Earlier, I told you in this post that "you", "ye" find 21 times in context of chapter 24 is apply to us as Christians both Jews and Gentiles. Matt. 24:31 is not limited for Jews of "Tribulation period" only, also, it apply to all Christians all over the world shall be gathering together as it refers with 1 Thess. 4:15-17; and 2 Thess. 2:1.

Aren't we the elect of God according to Colossians 3:12 "Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels, of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, long-suffering;"? How about 1 Peter 1:2? And how about good verse - 1 Peter 2:9 "But ye are a CHOSEN generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people: that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:"? 1 Peter 2:9 is a very clear written to Christians both Jews and Gentiles that we were chosen by God, and we were called out. Notice word, church in Greek word - 'Ekklesia', means "called out". Obivously, 1 Peter 2:9 was written to the Church.

Matt. 24:31 tells us that all Christians over the world shall be gathering together up in the air same with 1 Thess. 4:15-17; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; and 2 Thess. 2:1 too. That shall be follow AFTER tribulation - Matt. 24:29.

Matthew 24 doesn't saying that rapture will be before Tribulation. Christ tells us that we must go through tribulations first before He comes to gathering us together in the air.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!