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Music in worship

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by JSM17, Aug 24, 2009.

  1. JSM17

    JSM17 New Member

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    Johny Wrote:
    18 pages, and still not a single scripture that says instruments in worship (earthly corporate worship) are allowed.

    IBaker Wrote:

    Matt 26:30 & Mk 14:26: “When they had sung an hymn, they went out...”

    Acts 16:25: “At midnight Paul and Silas prayed and sang praises....”

    Rom 15:9: “I will sing unto thy name...”

    I Cor 14:15: “I will sing with the spirit and the understanding...”

    Eph 5:19: “Speaking to yourself in psalms and hymns...”

    Col 3:16: “Admonishing one another with psalms and hymns...”

    Heb 2:12: “In the midst of the congregation I will sing thy praises...”

    James 5:13: “Is any merry? Let him sing Psalms...”

    So do any of these passage refer to singing in worship? If not then what passages do we have in the N.T. for any kind of music whether singing or instruments?
     
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Not one of those Scriptures precludes the playing of instruments along with singing--even as David did.
     
  3. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele New Member

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    Yeah.

    I do not see the `without instruments, because God has decided He does not like them anymore in worship' in these texts.

    Come to think of it, I do not even see `without instruments' in these texts.

    Oh, I forgot, we are not talking about what Scripture actually says about the subject. We are supposed to throw it all out in favor of speculations on bans which Scripture does not record.

    I am not buying it. My kudos to you people who are bothering to fool with him on this.
     
    #183 Darron Steele, Sep 11, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2009
  4. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    So that gives us the liberty to add in all sorts of suppositions, from every other source but the Bible, and teach them as hard rule that everyone else has erred on at that, and it doesn't have to be Biblical at all...
     
  5. SaggyWoman

    SaggyWoman Active Member

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    Are you serious? Instruments is a devisive issue?
     
  6. lbaker

    lbaker New Member

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    Nope, not corporate, Sunday assembled together worship.

    So, is it your position that all of the scripture in Ephesians 4-5 about loving your wife, respecting your husband, not lying, etc. only pertain to Sunday morning worship?

    The only passage I know of that is talking specifically about music in corporate worship is 1 Cor. 14:26-27:

    26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.

    This passage doesn't mention whether instruments are to be used or not. Probably because it doesn't matter. Unless you look at the Greek for the word rendered here as hymn, which is psalmos, defined as follows:

    1) a striking, twanging

    a) of a striking the chords of a musical instrument

    b) of a pious song, a psalm

    I love you brother, but you are whipping a dead horse with this instrumental music issue.
     
  7. JSM17

    JSM17 New Member

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    The Old Testament explicitly stated that singing, playing instruments, and dancing were three distinct forms of musical expression, and each was an acceptable act of praise to God. The New Testament continues to describe singing as acceptable praise, but not one time are instruments or dancing mentioned as accepted forms of praise to God. The New Testament mentions instruments (12 times) and dancing (5 times), but never as acts of praise to God.

    Why does the New Testament contrast so powerfully to the Old Testament regarding instrumental music? If God still wants it today, why does He not clearly mention it in the New Testament, as He mentioned it in the Old Testament? He mentions instruments in the New Testament, but never for our praise to God. Why not?

    The Old Testament expressly authorized many practices which are nowhere authorized in New Testament service to God: the seventh-day sabbath, animal sacrifices, Levitical priesthood, burning incense, infant membership, circumcision, tithing, holy days, roast lamb in memorial feasts, dancing, and instrumental music. Since this law does not apply today, people generally omit these from service to God, yet some people want to keep instrumental music. Why leave some but take others?

    The very fact that God mentioned these practices repeatedly in the Old Testament, but does not mention them at all in the New Testament, proves that He does not want them now. If He wanted them, He would mention them now as He did then.

    Consider some important principles in reaching the proper conclusions about this evidence.
     
  8. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Don't you think that God could TELL us when something from the Old Testament is no longer wanted .... um like sacrifices or stoning people or using priests?? Why did He NOT say anything about music?
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Colossians 2:13-15 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

    Can you show where musical instruments were one of those ordinances that were contrary to us that Jesus took and nailed to the cross? I'd be interested in knowing where you can get that from the NT?
     
  10. JSM17

    JSM17 New Member

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    I cannot, just as I cannot show you a passage that Sabbath worship was changed to first day of the week worship, other than the examples of those in the New Testament.

    They sang to one another.

    The Bible teaches by: An explicit Statement; An implicit Statement; An "Approved" Example; Expediency.

    The Bible does not teach from silence.
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The Bible does give evidence that Sabbath worship was eventually changed to worshiping on Sunday such as in Acts 20:7.
    However, to prove that the use of instruments was absent is an argument from silence. You are the one arguing from silence since instruments were used before the church age (in the OT), and after the church age (in heaven). You conveniently omit the usage in the age in between with no apparent reason. The onus is on you to prove this omission.

    "Approved" doesn't cut it. Internet wasn't approved either.
     
  12. JSM17

    JSM17 New Member

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    The Bible conveniently omits the usage of instruments in N.T. worship, that is the argument from silence. The burden of proof is on you to prove that it is OK for you to go beyond that which has been written for the authority in N.T. worship.

    1 Cor 4:6

    6 Now these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes; that in us Ye might learn not (to go) beyond the things which are written; that no one of you be puffed up for the one against the other.
    ASV

    How can one "rightly divide" what is not written?

    The N.T. Scriptures tell us to sing: Commanded

    You imply that instruments are OK because of the O.T. and the Book of Revelation: Not commanded

    The argument that the Bible does not say not to use them is lame and is not used to authorize anything else that I know of. To do something apart from a straight forward command is direct disobedience to that command.

    It is your argument that is made from silence, not mine. The burden is not on me to show where it says you can't, the burden is on you to show where it says you can. I have my proof, I will stand before God on this issue and I will be judged by the words of our Lord, He said sing not play.
     
  13. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele New Member

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    Hardly.

    I have been watching this thread with interest and amusement. Your grandstanding is the funniest parts.

    `Proof by assumption' and dismissal of sweeping contrary evidence can `prove' anything. It proves nothing legitimately. When you grandstand about your `success' from this procedure, even as the folly of your premise is made blaringly evident, it is funny.
    No; if you are not a Christian, you will stand before Him and have to explain
    a) why you advocated a ban on what Scripture showed His approval of,
    b) lobbied to have everything the Scriptures say about the subject disregarded,
    c) even as the folly of your position was made evident,
    d) in order to avoid acknowledging that you are wrong.

    If you were to avoid using musical instruments in worship, I think you would be okay. However, you have gone beyond just not using them; you have advocated a ban contrary to everything Scripture says about the subject.

    I would not dare do what you are trying to do! I would never dare take any practice God shows His approval of through His Word from beginning to end, and call for a ban against it!

    Do not lecture to us about 1 Corinthians 4:6. Currently, none of us, besides you, is advocating a ban on what God in His Word shows His approval of. You are the one who needs to learn what it means.

    I have stayed out of this thread for the most part because I would be challenged to restrain myself from mocking you.
     
    #193 Darron Steele, Sep 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 16, 2009
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Why does one wrongly butcher that which is written? That is a better question.
    Consider the context that 1Cor.4:6 was written in. He is speaking of the false teachers in Corinth. Did you read verse 3?

    1 Corinthians 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
    --False teachers were judging him because of the way that he taught the Corinthians, teaching the Corinthians that Paul's doctrine was false and their doctrine was true.
    Paul sarcastically says to them: "It is a small thing for me to be judged of you!" Paul had started the church! He had won a great many of these people to the Lord.
    Now in verse 6 he says:

    1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
    --He is telling them not to listen to the false teachers. Rather the Word of God was their authority. Do not think about these men above that which is written. In other words "that which is written", the Scriptures, needs to be your guide. It is our sole authority in all matters of faith and doctrine.

    But with you it is not. You argue from silence. You put things into the Bible that are not there. You try and take a position on a foundation of nothing (like air).

    As I have tried to demonstrate to you before (but you will not listen), it is impossible to prove a universal negative. That is a logical fallacy, and yet you carry on.
    Here it is again.

    "The were no musical instruments in the early churches."
    It is a faulty premise and impossible to prove. How would you know this?
    Is it possible for you to visit the hundreds if not thousands of churches in the early centuries and check them all to see if there were any instruments or not? Of course not. You simply made a wide sweeping assumption that is impossible to prove. Thus you have no proof.
    Using logical fallacies as your foundation, rather than the Word of God, is one of the most foolish things you can do.
     
  15. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Ye might learn not (to go) beyond the things which are written

    Paul speaks of the OT scriptures here, not of his own writings. Therefore, it is you he speaks of. You are "false teaching" because you are going beyond what is written in the scriptures (OT) concerning music in worship. In fact, you are contradicting what is written about music in worship.

    You are commanded to pray. Do you do anything apart from that straight forward command? Like closing your eyes or bowing your head? Do you go into your closet and pray in secret? Do you pray corporately? Were is that commanded? Do you ever say "amen" while another prays? Were is that commanded?

    :jesus:
     
  16. JSM17

    JSM17 New Member

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    Right the scriptures say "sing" so I hold to that teaching and give no other earthly N.T. example and I am the one accused of making an argument from silence, that is funny.

    Darron Steele:
    Thanks for the break, its been nice, now mock on Mr. Steele

    Steaver Wrote:
    This argument has been shown, just another red herring. I already answered this. Deal with singing, thats what we are talking about. Show me earthly corporate worship in the N.T. under the New Covenant were they used mechanical instruments and then I will leave this forum and never come back.
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Why is it you never deal with the logical fallacies presented to you?
    You just go off on a red herring of what you DO, not what you omit to do.
    Why haven't you checked out in history if ALL the NT churches did not use history if that is your premise? Why? Because you cannot. You cannot prove that which you state, and thus look foolish in stating over and over again a statement which cannot be proven. Why do you avoid this??

    Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

    What does the word for Psalm mean:

    Even from the Scripture itself instruments cannot be ruled out, for the psalms were most often accompanied with a harp or other instrument and you have no proof that it was otherwise according to Strong's definition, as well as a good many commentaries.
     
  18. trustitl

    trustitl New Member

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    "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."


    You apparently do not understand this. As I read your arguments about worship, you are obviosly living according to the letter.

    "our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
    But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
     
    #198 trustitl, Sep 19, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2009
  19. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    It states;

    Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

    What psalms would Paul be thinking of? The OT psalms of course! David addressed many of his psalms "To the chief Musician". David had his psalms sung with musical instruments.

    If you do a bit of researching you will find that many psalms are filled with music, some were not. The NT commands us to sing psalms. It could be said that you are disobeying God's word by NOT using music in your worship.

    You have yet to acknowledge DHK's facts presented about the psalms. Facts are facts, you have lost this argument all day long.


    :jesus:
     
  20. mman

    mman New Member

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    Bottom line - Mechanical instruments of music are used because PEOPLE like them. They were not used in the early church, though they were available. When they were added centuries later, it caused division. Today, it is still causing division, obviously from the length of this thread.

    Those that like them do not believe they are essential, therefore it is a matter of choice, you can worship with them or without them.

    I cannot worship with them, it would violate my conscience.

    Therefore, since division is wrong and taught against, how can we be united???

    Don't use them.

    God's approved music in N.T. times = singing (Eph 5:19, Col 3:16-17).

    Therefore, if I only sing, I KNOW that I am pleasing God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom 10:17).

    I can sing by faith because I can read that God requires it.

    I cannot play an instrument by faith because God said nothing on that subject. It's funny how some will point to the O.T. or Heaven to try and justify what is authorized in the N.T. In heaven there is no marriage, so I guess we can do away with it now...

    There is not passage that condemns eating grape jelly and kool aid with the Lord's supper, so that must be fine also. Just eat it in addition to the unleavened bread and fruit of the vine. God doesn't care and it tastes much better, and since He didn't say not to, it MUST be fine...

    You cannot know what God wants or doesn't want by what He DID NOT say.

    The music commanded is singing. If you use a song book, in the end, you only have one type of music, singing.

    The command is to assemble. If you use a building, even with air conditioning, you are fulfilling the command to assemble.

    What many people obviously don't understand is the difference between carrying out a command and ADDING to a command.
     
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