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Do Baptists believe in the Trinity?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Dust, Dec 16, 2009.

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  1. Dust

    Dust New Member

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    There are many Greek words translated into the one English word meaning "worship." Only one truly means how we take it to mean as "religious worship."

    John 9:38 is proskyneo, which means to kiss the hand of, like a dog licking his master's hand. It is akin to kneeling before a king or bowing before a master. It is a sign of respect but not religious worshipping.

    1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
    2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
    3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
    a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank
    1) to the Jewish high priests
    2) to God
    3) to Christ
    4) to heavenly beings
    5) to demons

    Vine's definition:

    "to make obeisance, do reverence to" (from pros, "towards," and kuneo, "to kiss"), is the most frequent word rendered "to worship." It is used of an act of homage or reverence "

    The word for religious worship is threskeia. It is translated religion three times and worshipping one time.

    Vine's definition:
    "signifies 'religion' in its external aspect, 'religious worship,' especially the ceremonial service of 'religion'"

    When it was referred to as worshipping (Col 2:18), it was the condemnation of the worshipping of angels.

    The angel told John to kneel before God. As Christ is superior to us and the angels, the Father has said of him, "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth."

    You kneel before your king. Christ is our King. But all religious worship should be directed toward the Father.
     
    #41 Dust, Dec 17, 2009
  2. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    From Louisville Kentucky? If so why are you not more knowledgeable about proper methods of research and study? Especially when it comes to History or review of Documents.
     
    #42 Thinkingstuff, Dec 17, 2009
  3. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
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    That's the one.

    Who says I'm not? Believe me, you have no idea what I know or don't know.

    You might be interested to know that one of the first things I discuss in both my history classes and philosophy class are "proper methods of research and study", as you put it.

    Perhaps, if you treated me with a little more respect and did not constantly look for opportunities to attack me and impugn my intelligence, I might be a little more inclined to discuss things a little more in depth with you.

    Something else you might want to keep in mind is that internet message boards are informal meeting places where not everyone has the same education, experience, or interests, so I learned a long time ago not to try to talk over people's heads or to bore them with academic details. Just because I teach doesn't mean I walk around all day talking like Frasier Crane.

    But then, I guess not having anything to prove to you means I don't have to.
     
    #43 JohnDeereFan, Dec 17, 2009
  4. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    The verse above, which says you will ONLY worship God, is the word "Proskuneo."

    In other words, Jesus himself says that you are only to "proskuneo" God. No one else.
     
    #44 Havensdad, Dec 17, 2009
  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Modalism is heresy. The Holy Ghost is a person and is referred to as a person by Christ (John 14:6; 16:7). He (the person Holy Ghost) can be grieved (Eph 4:30). He is eternal (Hebrews 9:14).
     
    #45 Revmitchell, Dec 17, 2009
  6. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    For those keeping score, Modalism is the belief that the members of the Trinity are not three separate persons but modes or forms of God. This is, as Revmitchell noted, considered to be heretical to mainline Christian theology, which generally accepts Trinitarianism as a core scriptural doctrine.

    (note: someone asked me in a pm what modalism was, so I thought it prudent to post the answer here)
     
    #46 Johnv, Dec 17, 2009
  7. Dust

    Dust New Member

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    Actually it says "to him only shall you serve." If you are serving and obeying Christ, you are serving God, but that does not mean that Christ is God. It is the same as obeying the voice of an angel, such as the angel speaking to Moses. Serving or obeying the angel is obeying God because the angel is conveying the will of God. However, your religious worship should be towards the Most High, not to an angel.

    In other words, "revere the Deity and serve only him."

    If a wife serves her husband in the way God demands, she is serving God. If a slave serves his master in the way God demands, he is serving God.
     
    #47 Dust, Dec 17, 2009
  8. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    If your claim is that Jesus wasn't part of the Godhead, how do you explain the Holy Spirit? Do you claim that the Holy Spirit is likewise not part of the Godhead?
     
    #48 Johnv, Dec 17, 2009
  9. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    These Scriptures speak of man seeing God - but there are no Scriptures supporting the belief that God cannot look down on man. As a matter of fact, there is a whole lot of Scriptures saying that He does in fact look down on man. Here are two:

    Psalm 14:2 "The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man,
    to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God."

    Psalm 53:2 "God looks down from heaven
    on the children of man
    to see if there are any who understand,
    who seek after God."
     
    #49 annsni, Dec 17, 2009
  10. Dust

    Dust New Member

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    That would be incorrect to label our beliefs as such. We believe in two persons, the Father and the Son. They are not coequal and they are not coeternal. The Father is the ONLY one with immortality as it is clearly stated to Timothy. In the hierarchy of the Heavens, the Father is the Most High and Christ has been placed second, sitting at his right hand. The angels are below Christ, but all of them are one in spirit. There is one spirit emmenating from the Father that sustains them all.

    Christ manifests God, first in sinful flesh and now as a quickening spirit.
     
    #50 Dust, Dec 17, 2009
  11. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan Well-Known Member
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    Hi, Dust.

    How do you interpret Hebrews 8:1? How about Isaiah 9:6?

    Do you worship Jesus Christ?
     
    #51 JohnDeereFan, Dec 17, 2009
  12. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Sounds good, with the exception that it's not supported in scripture, nor is it consistent with scripture.
     
    #52 Johnv, Dec 17, 2009
  13. Dust

    Dust New Member

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    But how does he do so? Through the spirit? Through His angels? If any flesh stood before God, they would die. "No flesh may glory in His presence." Like the light of the glory of God going through Christ when he appeared before Paul, the light coming from God would kill us instantly.
     
    #53 Dust, Dec 17, 2009
  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Talk about ripping scripture out of its context.
     
    #54 Revmitchell, Dec 17, 2009
  15. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    The Angel said specifically not to "proskuneo" him, but God. He did not say "Worship God and Jesus". Nor did he say "Worship Gods".

    If Proskuneo is not religious worship, then religious worship is next to non-existent in the New Testament. It is said, MULTIPLE times, that we "proskuneo" God, but are not to "proskuneo" others.

    Also, your take on the Greek word "proskuneo" is incorrect. Please compare the 1st commandment:

    Exo 34:14 (for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),

    with the same verse from the Septuagint...

    Exo 34:14 οὐ γὰρ μὴ προσκυνήσητε θεῷ ἑτέρῳ· ὁ γὰρ κύριος ὁ θεὸς ζηλωτὸν ὄνομα, θεὸς ζηλωτής ἐστιν.
    (please note, this word is a form of Proskuneo).

    There is simply no getting around it. We are commanded in multiple places, to worship none but God. Jesus accepted worship: He is God, or a blasphemer.
     
    #55 Havensdad, Dec 17, 2009
  16. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Dust is a Christadelphian. They deny the Trinity and the deity of Christ as equal with the Father, sort of like the JWs. I posted that on the first page here. Just Google Christadelphian beliefs.

    Who Is Jesus?
    From
    http://christiananswersforthenewage.org/Articles_Jesus.html
     
    #56 Marcia, Dec 17, 2009
  17. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Is Jesus God?
     
    #57 annsni, Dec 17, 2009
  18. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I like what C.S. Lewis had to say about Christ in "Mere Christianity".


    “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
     
    #58 Amy.G, Dec 17, 2009
  19. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Dust, I'm still waiting for your exegesis of John 20:28...
     
    #59 Matt Black, Dec 18, 2009
  20. ccrobinson

    ccrobinson Active Member

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    You know why most people think that God spoke to Moses personally? Because he did. You don't get to pick and choose with verses of Scripture support your position while ignoring those that don't support your position. If you can't get the burning bush story right, what makes you think you should be listened to in regards to the Trinity?

    That's God talking to Moses personally.

    You mentioned Acts 7:30. Did you forget about Acts 7:32 or just decide to ignore it?

    If you want to say that an angel of the Lord was actually in the flame, I don't think I have a problem with that, but, an angel of the Lord isn't going to say, "I am the God of thy fathers..." It's very clear that it was God who was speaking personally to Moses.
     
    #60 ccrobinson, Dec 18, 2009
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