Your view on Catholics

I understand the frustration and the need to be accurate. But in this "everybody is a member of the catholic church" idea - the RCC itself is very clear that such is not the case.

For example - "the New Covenant" is not applicable to non-Catholics according to the RCC. Hint - this means that you and I are not saved under the Biblical New Covenent - by Catholic standards.

Christ said "this is the cup of the New Covenant in my blood" - Catholics argue that this is very specifically - the Catholic Eucharist. While they allow this for Eastern Orthodox as well - they do not allow it for Baptists, or Methodists or Seventh-day Adventists etc etc.

Hence - they do not practice open communion.

In the Catholic model - those non-Catholic groups are saved by some "other method" other than the New Covenant method of scripture.

I agree with you that accuracy is an important point to keep in mind.

in Christ,

Bob

 

In Acts 20 Paul predicts that "after my departure" men would arise within the church "from among your own selves" that would teach false doctrine and cause apostacy. How many of the ECFs came in "after Paul's departure"?

In 1Tim 1 - Paul says that Timothy was to remain at Ephesus to combat the upsurge of false doctrine already creeping in to the early NT church.

Titus is given the same command in Titus chapter 1.

In 2Thess 2 - Paul predicts a gross apostacy in the Christian church of the future "the falling away" that he sees so clearly in that future is mentioned there in his discussion of future events for the world.

Augustine comes to mind.

 

HP: Ah, don’t be too hard on the Catholics. I hear some non-Catholics around here developing a theory of yet ‘another salvation’ for the fetus in the womb that has no capacity to hear and understand the only gospel taught in Scripture, i.e, via repentance and faith in Christ. That certainly appears to be another gospel to me as well. :thumbsup:

 

Augustine was not the only one with a checkered record of beliefs.

from http://www.bmts.com/~bostock/church/index.html
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HP: Lets see. If in fact one of those manuscripts happened to be preserved for various reason (climate where the manuscript happened to be stored etc.) and if it could be shown that it was the 'oldest' surviving manuscript.......(are you with me so far?) ........ Would older necessitate 'better' as so many claim???

 

Sounds like GREAT support for the Majority text to me. :thumbsup:

 

Agreed - "Older is not always better".

In fact the very fact that the 50 copies that Constantine tried to push off on the church were not being overwhelmingly accepted is an indicator that the fractured-Bible of Constantine was deemed to have been flawed.

When we see version-A being accepted and version-B being rejected it is hard to then justify coming along later and saying "We should all use version B because I found an old copy of it" --

As I recall the Sinaticus document was recovered from a trash can and was loaded with mistakes and omissions.

The Vaticanus document was kept locked up and was not used by Christians at the time it was initially written.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Excellent post Bob.:thumbsup: I just wish my cat would give me a better view of the computer screen.:smilewinkgrin:

 

Cats are evil. They know when something good is on the PC and then try to walk on your keyboard.

They also will not shake, rollover, sit or come when you call them.

They treat us like dogs.

We need to rise up against them - and declare our freedom.

 

To say absolutely nothing of he does to my new black vest! Cat lovers of America, unite!:laugh:

 

So now I discover that any scripture that has been used and believed upon by the church all these centuries and that I happen to use in order to defend a certain doctrine is counted by those who oppose that doctrine as being corrupted?

So really we are all wasting our time using the scriptures because the other person doesn't believe in this or that particular manuscript? If that is so then we might as well all pack up and go home and join forces with the atheists. For at least they are all united in their enmity against Christ.
But Christians it seems to me are always arguing about what is inspired and what is not inspired and if a certain scripture militates against my pet doctrine then that scripture must obviously be among those chosen by Constantine.

By the way it is not to Constantine you should look, but to Athanasius. And the contention was not about what scriptures are inspired, but about whether Christ was Divine or only human.

For goodness sake brethren get you acts together. There are real enemies of Christ out there in the big wide world. Why are we always fighting one another? For if you are not straight on these basic truths of the Christian message then I doubt if we are saved at all? No wonder the world doesn't believe our message. What were the words of our Lord? "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"

 

Therein lies a fundamental flaw in the mentality of many here. If someone doesn't share the same view of Catholics, then they're "Catholic defenders". Not only is that incorrect (as evidenced by the fact that many of those supposed "catholic defenders" have also voiced criticism with Catholicism), but it's rather pharasaical and unrighteous.

We're not content to have Catholics tell us what they believe. We instead continue to tell them what we think they believe, regardless of whether that's what they believe or not. That's not dialogue and discussion, it's pontification.

 

I cannot tell what post you are addressing.

What text did you quote - that was labelled "corrupted"?

 

You are absolutely right! If Catholic tell you what we have been taught and believe then we are proselytes. Anyone who knows either by being an ex-Catholic or by study of actual Catholic teaching (not Jack Chick style) are Catholic defenders and suspect of being actual 'closet Catholics'. Rarely does a thread begin discussing a particular Catholic teaching or dogma than the rants begin:

You worship the Saints
You worship the Virgin Mary
You believe Mary is more important than Jesus.
You don't believe that Jesus shed blood on the cross is sufficient to cover all sins.
You believe Purgatory is a second chance to get into heaven.
The Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon
You re-sacrifice Jesus at every mass
Your believe your pope is sinless.
You are not 'true believer, you worship another Jesus or worse yet Mary instead.
Christ did not found the church upon Peter and the keys to kingdom were conferred to only the apostles living at the time when Jesus did this.
The ECF's were all heretics and can't be trusted for anything.

There is such a strong anti-Catholic (and sometimes outright hatred and bigotry demonstrated by some of the posters on this board) that it often seem senseless you engage in discussion.

Thank you, John V, for speaking up

 

If you pray to either, you are in fact worshiping them.

Quote from Pope John Paul " I do not know when it will come but I place this moment, like all other things, in the hands of the Mother of my Master: Totus Tuus. In these same motherly hands I leave everything and Everyone with whom my life and my vocation have brought me into contact. In these Hands I above all leave the Church, and also my Nation and all humankind"

If the first is true, what is the second for?

I don't think the catholic church is ever stated as such...the RCC is.

No, you just eat Him.

You do call him the Vicar (substitute) of Christ. Logical reasoning would assume if Christ is sinless, His alleged substitute needs to be as well.

Like anyone, true of some, false for others.

Correct...Christ founded the Church.

Not sure what ECF's are.

This song is getting old, not to mention the martyr syndrome (no pun intended). You are on a Baptist Board primarily, with the majority of doctrine disagreed on. It's silly to keep harping on this.

 

Are you telling me that Catholics really do not build statues of Mary and other dead "saints" and bow down to them in prayer?

Actually, I've been told by many Catholics that Jesus is obligated to obey Mary. And I've already shown you where Catholics believe it's Mary who crushes Satan's head, and not Jesus.

Again, are you really saying that Catholics don't believe in Purgatory?

Again, several of us have already shown you using Catholicism's own sources that Catholicism does, indeed, teach this.

While "Whore of Babylon" in the Biblical sense is debatable, the Catholic Church certainly is a whore and a wicked and Unbiblical cult.

Again, several people have already backed this claim up using Catholicism's own sources.

Again, this is something I've been told this by many Catholics.

This much is made obvious by the heretical view of justification of Catholicism.

This is true. The Bible states that Christ founded the church on Peter's confession and not Peter.

Who here has ever said that?

Now, don't forget to go back to Catholic.com and tell your tall tales about us.

 

We shouldn't go by what Catholics say they believe - they could be wrong, for one thing. We should go by the official teachings as they are in the Catechism and official declarations of the Pope or Magisterium.

I think it's rather pharsacaical of you to say what you say in the 1st paragraph - you always decry judging others but you do it all the time, as you do above.

 

Instead of knocking straw men, let's look at some Catholic teachings.

Here is something on the church at 2030 from the Catechism:

(underlining added)

Here's just one statement (there are others) at 967 on Mary and the Church:

(Underlining added)
So Mary is the "exemplary realization" of the church? So you here who are mad at us who point out unbiblical Catholic doctrine are okay with this?


Here's another choice statement from the Catechism:

Not just prayer for the dead, but the belief that our prayer will help them be "loosed from their sins." This is a direct attack on the atonement of Christ being insufficient. But I'm sure the Catholic defenders here will try to rationalize this so it is not saying what it really is saying.
So you guys who think some of us are being unfair are okay with this? This is a teaching of the RCC.

 

Some doctrine on Mary:

I have not made one inaccurate statement about Catholic belief here because I have backed up everything with the Catechism.