Any Calvinist willing to walk through Romans 11 with me?

Considering the fact you have already acknowledged that you ignore the context of the passage in order to speculate on what you want to believe.... I'll skip your lecture on hermenutics.:smilewinkgrin:

peace to youraying:

 

Yeah, I see and you sum up what I see quite well. Just as God elected to save those who obeyed and painted their doorways with lamb's blood and just a while later when He elected to save all those who looked upon the brass serpent in obedience and faith. Yes, God elects to save those who obey His command: "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved!" You are exactly right that is what I believe. And those who choose NOT to believe will NOT be saved, will die in their sins and will see judgement. (and I believe in a fiery hell)

And I believe the number of times the words believe and/or "repent and believe" are used far out weigh the number of times the words foreknew and predestinate are used. Wonder if God had a reason for that?

Really? (not being sarcastic) Show me what causes you to believe that. Are you saying that I first rejected and then accepted God's commands, all before the age of 7? (as that is when I was saved)

 

Yeah, there were probably a few Calvinists running around telling the people not to paint their doorway's with blood as this would violate God's sovereignty. But I doubt there were any Calvinsits running around warning people not to look at the brass serpent in the wilderness, because they all died the night they refused to paint blood on their doorways. :tongue3:

 

Well, at least you acknowledge that you believe man merits his own salvation.

I am certain the reason wasn't so arminians could ignore the passages that speak predestination and "foreknew".

There must be a way to reconcile the passages. IMHO, reformed theology does that. I don't see how your beliefs do that without ignoring, or changing, the meaning of the words "foreknew" and "predestined".

God commands us to repent and believe. No one is able to repent and believe without God's intervention. Everyone rejects God offer, both in general revelation and direct revelation.

God intervenes in the lives of those He has chosen (predestined before the foundation of the world) for salvation, His "elect". When God regenerates them, according to the kind intention of His will, they respond with repentance and faith, obeying God's commandment to "repent and believe". Salvation, therefore, is appropriated by faith, and is a gift of God.

I won't speak to your experience, only what scripture says.

peace to youraying:

 

Considering how "Calvinists" are very careful to believe the Word of God, instead of ignoring parts of God's Word that doesn't fit what they want to believe,....

... the "Calvinists" would have been killing the lambs and distributing the blood out of love and concern for their brethren...

... the arminians, OTOH, would have been telling people to follow their own free-will and not be the puppet of God...:laugh:

peace to youraying:

 

That's absurd and you know it. Painting the blood on the door would be a choice. It is saying, "God please spare me". There is no way a Calvinist can participate in his own salvation, it must be ALL OF GOD!

You guys would sit around doing nothing and saying "if God elects to save me he will come and put the blood on my door".

Or maybe you believe that a man does play a part in his salvation after all??

 

I haven't ignored them, I simply believe that God intended those passages to indicate something different that you. You can claim Arminians ignore them, but we'll just claim back that you ignore the plain teaching that man must believe. (really don't feel like bickering with you in this manner. Rather discuss the issues than toss around insults)

And God did intervene:

Joh 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice hath not come for my sake, but for your sakes.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

It is you who insists that God must intervene a second time in order for man to respond to what God through Christ has already done. I believe that when Christ said "it is finished" He meant exactly what He said. There was nothing left to be done to secure salvation for man, but for man to believe.

 

Skandelon,

You mentioned of the passage that Jesus gaven the parable of Matt. 22:11-14, even, inlude whole context of Matt. 22:1-14 talking about invite them come to the wedding feast. This passage is very good and powerful.

Calvinists do actual have problem with this passage.

Calvinists believe God called them ALL as they are God's elect. Whilst they believe it is irresistible grace. They saying that Holy Spirit TOUCHES elect's heart immediately became saved without call or believe upon Christ. This is samiliar like total deparvity-all people CANNOT go to Christ because they are spiritually dead, unless TILL the Holy Spirit touches people to become saved. It sounds like being to force people to become saved without make decision & choice.

Matt. 22:1-14 clearly telling us, this passage give the picture of evangelism, telling us as servants go out to reach lost people, bny invite them to Christ for salvation. Obivously, Christ doesn't saying that he is force lost people to become saved. He only INVITED lost people for salvation. This passage teaching us that people do have choices.

By the way, Christ made the point - "Many called" means that ALL elects were saved in the first place. But, afterward, "Few chosen" means, few truly elects shall be made it at the end. Sadly, most of elects will not make it at the end.

In 2 Peter 1:10 says, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"


The sad fact is, Jesus knows MOST of the elects will not make it at the end, will be end up in everlasting fire - Matt. 7:13-14. Only FEW remain of faithful elects will be make it at the end(enter into the door at the end of narrow road)- everlasting life. Therefore, FEW are "chosen".

Clearly, Bible teaches us that our salvation is conditional.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

My apologies, I didn't intend to bicker or "toss around insults".

Please explain what you believe the words "foreknew" and "predestined" mean.

BTW, I have explained that I believe that man must believe, so that isn't really an argument you can make against what I believe.

Do you believe Holy Spirit must draw men to God and convict them of sin?

If you do, then how do you reconcile that belief with your previous statement?

peace to youraying:

 

You worry to much about the individual words and not enough about the passage where those words occur. In that context, I believe Paul is telling Christians that God has a plan and has always had a plan for those who would believe His (God's) Word.

Hmmm, this one took me a while to answer. I've heard preachers all my life say to not resist the call of the Holy Spirit. Never questioned it. Never was questioned about it until you posted the above. But I find that the drawing of the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost is inconsistant with the place the scripture tells He should be in. I'm as surprised by that as you will be when you read this. however:

I find that the Holy Spirit is a gift only given after the fact of belief is accomplished. This order: God sends Christ, Christ draws man, man believes and receives the Holy Spirit as a gift to guide and direct man, man is then the representative of the Holy Spirit in as much as we witness and tell others about Christ, yet it is Christ who draws the unbeliever who knows naught of the Holy Spirit until he believes.

I can find no scripture whatsoever that shows the Holy Spirit convicting the unbeliever or even being known to unbelievers.

 

You can't? Jesus himself said when the Holy Spirit is come he will convict the world of sin. And this is clearly speaking of unbelievers as shown in the text. "Reprove" means to convict.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Search no longer, there it is as plain as day.

The scriptures are also absolutely clear that a person has the ability to believe. There were multitudes who believed on Christ before he was crucified and rose again, the scriptures say so many times. But the scriptures also say those who believed did not receive the Holy Spirit until after Jesus rose from the dead and was glorified.

John 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

Not only does John 4:39 tell us that many Samaritans believed on Jesus, it tells us the exact reason why they believed, for (because) of the saying of the woman at the well who spoke to Jesus. Now, here is the very place the scriptures could tell us that they believed because the Holy Spirit regenerated them but does not. In fact, you would have to believe that the scriptures are teaching a very misleading doctrine right here if the doctrines of Calvinism are true (which they are not).

No, unsaved and unregenerate man has the ability to believe, the scriptures show so many times. And we know for a fact that these believers did not have the Holy Spirit, for the scriptures tell us a little later that the Holy Spirit was not yet given to believers.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

I don't know how it can be any clearer, the scriptures say for a fact that these people who believed had not yet received the Holy Spirit.

 

Well, you missed verse 7 which specifically states that the Comforter will be sent to the believers, not to the unbelievers.

I don't have time to do more than a hit and run this morning, but basically I believe this is stating that believers indwelled with the Holy Spirit will be the reproof. The action is the Holy Spirit's, the vessel is us(believers). I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is floating around whispering into the ears of unbelievers all on His own (not that He being God couldn't, just that He isn't). It is the testimony of believers combined with the power of the Holy Spirit that reproves the world of sin.

You will not find a place where the Holy Spirit approached an individual without the testimony of a believer, nor will you find anywhere that unbelievers received the Holy Spirit. If you do, I may change my mind on this. Remember, this was a surprise to me too.

The draw, the convicting power is Christ's, the witness is the Holy Spirit.

 

Nevertheless, you seem to want to ignore the clear words of Jesus himself who said he (the Holy Spirit) would reprove the world of sin, and in the next verse shows that he is speaking of unbelievers.

But there is more. Here is an instance of the Holy Spirit convicting unsaved men.

John 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

These men were unsaved, in fact they were very wickedly trying to tempt Jesus in order that they accuse him of sin. But when Jesus spoke his word to them, they were convicted by their own conscience.

What some here do not realize is the Jesus is the Word of God. And the Word of God is Spirit.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The scriptures are the very Word of God. They are Jesus. They are Spirit. This is the method God has chosen to communicate with man. It all comes down to whether you listen to and believe the scriptures.

Jesus also describes the Holy Spirit as water. He offers the water to all, but you must drink it.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

You could be dying of thirst and I could give you a big glass of cold water, won't do you a bit of good unless you drink it. It is the same with Jesus, he offers you his Spirit like water. But you must drink it of your own free will, he doesn't pry your mouth open and force it down your throat.

 

You are correct, no unbeliever receives the Holy Spirit. They must turn from unbelief and trust in Christ. It is upon believing that they receive the Spirit.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

This verse is not difficult, here Paul is asking how these believers received the Holy Spirit. Was it by doing works? No. Was it by hearing and believing God's word? Yes.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The order of events are clearly described here. First, these persons heard the word of truth, the Gospel. Second, they believed or trusted the Gospel. Third, they received and were sealed by the Holy Spirit.

It is Calvinism that teaches that unbelievers receive the Holy Spirit. They teach that you are just walking along an unbeliever, and suddenly God zaps you with the Holy Spirit and you are enabled to believe afterward. Calvinism reverses the order shown in scripture.

So, it is Calvinism that teaches that unbelievers receive the Spirit, not non-Cals.

 

I haven't dropped out of this discussion. Real life has me occupied at the moment.

When I have a coherent and complete response, I'll be back. Maybe tommorrow or the next day.

 

I like the way you write and just from your name I get the idea you get to the point because you don't have a lot of free time.
In view of your above statement, what do you make of the following when Stephen was preaching to a gathering of Jewish leaders?

Acts 7:51 (King James Version)
51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

I have broken your statement in half, not to be picky; but because I think there might be something different to consider in each half......

I think we should consider the Bible says one is saved by believing the word, and one must first hear the word; however it does not say one must hear the word from a believer.
It is the message that makes the difference, not the messenger.
I have no doubt a person can be saved by hearing the word even if the word comes from an unsaved preacher.

Here I agree if you mean unbelievers are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit; but I do feel unbelievers can be pricked by the Holy Spirit.

IMO the Holy Spirit is the manifestation of the Godhead on earth today.

 

To all the adherents of Doctrines of Grace (Historical Baptists, Calvinists) I have a request. Not a sarcastic one, not intentionally a provacative one, but an honest and intellectual request. If you have the time and are so inclined please see the included link and teach me, instruct me, dont "theologize" me, instruct me where the article is historically or factually inaccurate.

Allow me to say, I am not a member of DoG family, and I have no "evil" intent here, just would like to know the historical accuracy/inaccuracy of the authors claims.

Thank You

http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm

PS Please forgive me if I am "out of place" on this thread, or if this particular article has been referenced before.

 

Sorry this took so long for me to get back too:

No, I’m not ignoring anything. When you see great groups of people in the Bible who are being saved, how did it happen? It happened through the witness of believers that were already filled with the power of the Holy Spirit. Like I already said, the action is the Holy Spirit, the vessel is the believer. In that manner, the above scripture is fulfilled.

It clearly says they were convicted by their own conscience. How do you get from that to they were convicted by the Holy Spirit who was NOT YET COME?

And I agree right up to where you give the credit to the Holy Spirit something the Bible is clear refers to Christ, that is: His words.

Exactly. *He* offers. Christ offers. “If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me.” Not until you accept does the Holy Spirit begin to lead and direct.