Define "The Gospel"

Context is ignored--as usual.
Paul is addressing the Jews in chapter two, sometimes comparing them to the Gentiles; but it is the Jews that are the main focus of this chapter.

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
--It couldn't be any clearer, could it?

Again, a reference given without any context. Typical.
What was the context in Matthew 7? Jesus was speaking specifically of false teachers, of whom he was telling his disciples to be aware of.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
--This is the key verse. Most of the rest of the chapter must be interpreted in the light of this verse. He is speaking of false prophets. Those who stand before him claiming to do mighty works are false prophets. He will answer to them "I never knew you." The context of Matthew 7 has nothing to do with Romans 2. The two are totally unrelated.

Give the context:
Romans 2:13-14 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
--Paul is addressing the Jews. See the contrast to the Gentiles. He is rebuking them (the Jews), because the have the Law, the written Word of God. There is no excuse on their behalf. They ought to be ashamed of themselves (so to speak). Just because they have the OT, (which they did), and heard it preached in their synagogues, and even in the Temple, did not mean that they were justified. They had to carry out the Law. He is directing his remarks toward the Jews, those who were under the law.. But remember that the law could not save. He shames them, by contrasting them to the Gentiles, reminding them that Gentiles do not have the written Law, only God's law written in their hearts, and yet the do by nature keep the law which the Jews were not keeping. That was the point of vs.14,15. It was the strongest rebuke possible to the Jews--to contrast them to the Gentiles.

What world do you live in?????
How many false prophets do the will of the Father?
Christ is speaking of false prophets. Remember? Context Bob, Context!!

Romans 2:14-16; 26-29
--In verses 14-16 Paul says nothing of the Holy Spirit, nothing of the New Birth, nothing of the New Covenant. The only thing that is mentioned is that they have God's moral law written in their hearts. That is they inherently know right from wrong. And when they do wrong God has given them a conscience to tell them that they have transgressed the law of God. Every man knows God's basic moral law, and when they have committed wrong against it. That is all that those verses teach.

In verses 26-29 there is nothing that relates to the plan of salvation. He declares that whether or not a person is circumcised or not he is still guilty before God. He is still a sinner. We all have sinned. His remarks are still directed to the Jew. The Jews' circumcision does not give him an advantage as a sinner before God.

Romans 2:25-26 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
--There is no gospel here; no new covenant; no new birth; nothing but condemnation of the Jew. In fact there is nothing but condemnation of those who break the law, and that is all for no one can keep the law.

Bob, you haven't answered honestly.
The text that Dr. Walter referred to here is Romans 1:19-32
Your above answer was to this question:

"Now, Does Paul anywhere in this text imply or infer that any Gentile in Romans 1:19-32 who had the light of conscience and light of nature responded to that light in repentance and faith?"

You say "yes" that those mentioned in the above verses responded in repentance and faith?
Did you read the passage? If so, I can't take you seriously, or I pity your understanding of the Scriptures.

Romans 1:19-32 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

The summary verse at the end of the chapter should emphasize how wrong your answer is. These people who commit idolatry, worship and serve the creature instead of the Creator, practice homosexuality and lesbianism, do not like to retain God in their own knowledge, etc.
--These are the ones Bob whom you said:
"responded to the light in repentance and faith."

I can hardly believe your answer Bob???

 

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.



Bob,

You are asking us to take your explanation of Romans 1:18-3:8 over Paul's explanation. Paul clearly and explicitly tells the Romans in Romans 3:9:

"We have BEFORE PROVED both Jews and gentiles....there is NONE, no, NOT ONE"

Where did he "BEFORE" prove this Bob? Can you show us where between Romans 1:18 to Romans 3:8 Paul '"PROVED" that "NOT ONE" natural born Gentile and "NOT ONE" natural born Jew sought God or did righteousness?

Show us where he proved this "BEFORE" Romans 3:9 Bob?

If you cannot show us where Paul "proved" that "NOT ONE" natural born Jew or Gentile sought God and did righteousness, then either Paul lied or you are misinterpreting Romans 1:18-3:8 and thus lying to us.

You are misintepreting the Word of God. Romans 1:18-3:8 deals with the jew and gentile in the context of the NATURAL STATE - unregenerated state.

Romans 1:18 which introduces "the wrath of God against all unrighteousness" and then deals with the complete and total rejection of light by the gentiles from Romans 1:19-32.

Romans 2:17-3:8 deals with the light given the natural born Jew and their total rejection and perversion of it.

Romans 2:1-16 deals with the principles that God follows in judging men in response to the light they have been given.

Bob, you cannot find a single solitary statement of new birth, repentance unto life, salvation, conversion to the LIGHT GIVEN between Romans 1:18-3:21 - NOT ONE STATEMENT. Why? Because Paul's stated purpose between Romans 1:18-3:9 is to prove that NOT ONE natural born Jew or gentile responds positively to the light given.

All you have provided are statements that indicate that light was given. That God's goodnesss SHOULD lead them to repentance but not evidence that ANY did respond in repentance.

You have taken the principles provided by Paul to show that God will judge fairly in regard to anyone who can be found that would do righteous but not a single solitary word says that any DID or any will be FOUND among NATURAL BORN Jews and Gentiles on judgement day in Romans 2:1-16.

Who shall we beleive? Paul and his explicitly stated purpose for writing Romans 1:18-3:8 to "PROVE" not one natural born human being can be found who is righteous, and who does seek God in response to the light given OR your interpretation that says such can be found?

Here is the bottom line. Paul said he "BEFORE PROVED" it! Can you show us where he proved that between Romans 1:18-3:8??????????

Bob your explanation of Romans 2:1-16 is a declaration that Paul did not prove it and therefore Paul is a liar because according to you, you found at least "ONE" natural born gentile and Jew that did do righteous and that did seek after God whereas Paul says he proved that "NOT ONE" could be found.

So, shall we beleive YOU or Paul?

 

On the contrary - numerous times I have exhausted every text in Romans 2 - showing the very points where your argument totally ignores the statements by Paul showing a lot of success by the Gentiles in Rom 2 and even cases were Jews are successful.

As long as your argument has to keep pretending "not to notice those details" in the text itself - I am very much motivated to continue "pointing to them".

No - you only presented a light smattering "gloss over" of the details in Romans 2 in the case where those details were most inconvenient to your position.

And you did it in a transparent fashion that just isn't that hard to see.

That leaves me in the position of having a whole list of points from Romans 2 that you must continue to ignore to hold your argument together - all of which are fair game for posting -- right out of the text of scripture in Romans 2.

I could not have wished for a better situation. Your decision not to directly address the inconvenient points raised - has left me with a wide open field.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Wrong.

I am asking the reader to notice "each verse" between Romans 1 and the end of Romans 3. I am highlighting the fact that EACH verse is signififcant and that Paul in no case tried to "delete Romans 2" or the truths listed in Romans 2 - by something said in Romans 3.

Hence the transparent and glaring problem for your argument.

1. Paul's statement in Rom 3:9-11 deals with the sinful nature of all mankind 'apart from the gospel' new birth.

2. Paul's statement in Rom 3:9-11 deals with the sinful nature - the view of the lost APART from forgiveness and the grace of God.

Your "solution" when confronted by the "WILL BE JUSTIFIED" statement in Romans 2:13 is to ignore Gospel Justification.

Your solution when confronted with "Gospel Judgment" in Rom 2:16 - is to ignore the Gospel in Romans 2.

Your solution when confronted with Gentiles that SHOW the New Covenant "Law written on the heart" work of The Holy Spirit in Romans 2 - is to "ignore the work of the Holy Spirit on the heart" in Romans 2

In Rom 3:4 "let God be found true though every man be found a liar" is a statement about the sin and failing of every one of mankind.

But "Perseverance in doing GOOD" Rom 2:7 is NOT an example of "Not seeking after God" - because it is in the GOSPEL context of Rom 2:4 the call to repentance and the GOSPEL context of Rom 2:28-29 the work of the Holy Spirit in the New Birth - the New Creation - the circumcision of the heart.

On the contrary I repeatedly showed Gospel examples of of success in Romans 2 including the Gospel in Romans 2 - and will go on to show it in Romans 1 as well.

Paul's Romans 2 statement is merely an expansion of Christ's point on the same subject in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them... a good tree produces good fruit...Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord - but he who DOES the will of My Father."

in Christ,

Bob

 

Bob, your attempt to exegete this context is simply pitiful. Do you think the rest of the people on this forum are so blind and stupid that they cannot see that the gentiles are explicitly mentioned by name in Romans 3:9 and the ONLY place Gentiles are categorically described and condemned for rejecting the light of nature and concience (they have no light of scripture as that has been given to the Jews - Rom. 3:2) is Romans 1:19-32! That very light of nature and conscience in Romans 1:19-20 is specifically applied to the Gentiles and their conscience in Romans 2:14-15 demonstrating clearly that it is the gentiles being described in Romans 1:19-32. Yet, you attempt to stuff it all in Romans 3:4 when Romans 3:4 is not talking about gentiles at all but making a direct application to the unbelieving Jews in Romans 3:3 and the argument by Jews up to Romans 3:8.

Do you think everyone is so blind and stupid not to see that the Jews are mentioned explicitly by name in Romans 3:9 and the only place they are specifically named and categorically "proven" unrighteous begins in Romans 2:17-3:8 rather than merely Romans 3:5.

Hence, prior to Romans 3:9 Paul has Gentiles being categorically "proven" to be unrighteous in Romans 1:19-32 and Jews categorically "proven" to be unrighteous in Romans 2:17-3:8 and yet you deny it and stuff it all in one verse - Rom. 3:4. Have you even read the context??????? It is as plain as the nose on your face if your capable of seeing your nose.

I have said from the beginning that both Romans 1:18-32 and Romans 2:17-3:8 is designed to prove that the Gentiles and Jews in their NATURAL STATE - unregenerated state are under consideration alone. The justified saint is not even introduced until Romans 3:24-8:39. If you will just reread my posts you can see that too if you are really looking for truth.

Sooo, Romans 2:1-16 is planted right smack in the middle of exposition by Paul that has "proven" that there is none among them in the natural state that doeth good "NO, NOT ONE." If you can't see that, you simply cannot see - period!

Now, here is foolishness of your interpretation. Romans 2:1-16 is placed right in the middle of two obvious expositions designed to prove NONE ARE RIGHTEOUS in Romans 1:19-32 and NONE ARE RIGHTEOUS in Romans 2:17-3:8 but your are interpreting it to contradict everything said before and after it. Moreover, you don't even know what the contextual purpose of Romans 2:1-16 is in regard to what precedes and what follows it. You have no concept and to your credit you don't even make an attempt to give it any contextual application to what precedes and follows it. Why? because you have not given sufficient study to the context. I suggest that before you start spouting about what you think it is, that you study it in its context so you can demonstrate by the preceding and following context that what you say it is harmonizes with the immediate context it is placed in. Your exposition does not harmonize with the context but repudiates the context.

Romans 1:1-16 is given by Paul right between PROVING among unregenerated gentiles and unregenerated Jews that God's system of justice is fair to unregenerated Jews and Gentiles and they will be judged according to the light they have and according to their works and according to how they measure or fail to measure up to God's Standard of righteousness - the law. That is his point for Romans 2:1-16 nothing more and nothing less.

Now, to prove your "points" are wrong. You have not listed a single point that claims anyone in this context is regarded as SAVED or REGENERATED. There is no statement in this text that declares that as fact. What it declares is that IF they measure up to the law they will be given the reward of the law but IF they do not they will not. It only declares the goodness of God SHOULD lead them to repentance but nowhere does it say it DID or WILL lead them to repentance. Paul is simply laying out the ground rules for God's judgement and how mankind will be treated NOT THAT ANY in this context are DECLARED to have been saved or regenerated.

I dare you to show any statement that UNCONDITIONALLY demands anyone is regarded as saved, regenerated in this context. All this context considers is IF some measure up or IF they fail to measure up what the consequences will be IF that is the case.

If you can find a single statement that is not speaking of POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES but is demanding UNCONDITIONAL declarations of actual saved persons under consideration then I will consider your objection. Until you can do that you have no basis for objecting to my contextual based exposition.

 

You say that "as if" you had demonstrated something in your favor... :laugh:

hint: Pulpit pounding and false accusations are not a "funny kind of proof".

Surely you can see that your solution that regard is transparently flawed enough so that many objective unbiased readers will see it - right?

What were you thinking?

As they are in the succeeding examples of Romans 2.

Hint - your "do not look at the details of Romans 2 that do not fit my argument" solution - keeps failing.

As has already been noted - Rom 3:9-14 is showing how all of mankind has a sinful nature and is condemned by the still-valid, still-authorotative Law of God - apart from the Romans 2 Gospel call to repentance and apart from the Romans 2 new heart (vs 26-29, vs 14-16) - and the Romans 2 Gospel judgment (vs 16).

Romans 3:4 "Every man a liar"
Rom 3:9 "We have already shown that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin".

Hint - Paul did not say "every Jew a liar" (remember the glaringly obvious -Paul himself is a Jew) - thus speaking about the sinful nature of "every man" even Paul.

"Pretending" not to "get the point" is not serving your argument as well as you appear to have at first imagined.

I have said already half a dozen times - that Rom 3:9 applies to both Jews and Gentiles - the sinful nature of mankind where in fact "every man is found a liar" - because all have sinned.

Your need to bend and wrench the text while ignore inconvenient details of the same "noted".

Wrong again - although you seem to be wondering a bit closer to "Some" truth.

Paul does not say in Rom 3:9 "Ignore every example of Gospel salvation I have given to this point in time - just start here - all have sinned".

Your gloss-over, hand waiving and pulpit pounding responses "not withstanding" of course.

And thus you are wrong.

1. Rom 2:4-16 is being ignored - where we see successful cases.

2. Rom 2:25-29 - specifically shows gentiles in a successful scenario.

Then you need to get a clue about Rom 2:11-16 not only are we given the Gospel point of future justification - we are actually instructed to notice the case of gentiles - with the new heart - New Covenant promise as they pass that "Gospel judgment" event in the future.

Wrong.

Rom 3:9-14 proves that there are none righteous in their natural state -- all by itself.

Romans 1:14-17 is explicitly referencing the Gospel condition.

Romans 2:4 the Gospel condition of the call to repentance.

Romans 2:4-13 the Gospel result of the perseverance of the saints and the eternal reward - applied explicitly to BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

Romans 2:13-16 the case of Gentiles who are approved in the future Gospel Judgment.

Romans 2:25-29 the explicit reference to Gentiles - who are born-again, new hearts, new creations, the work of the Holy Spirit.

The details in Romans 2 that your man made traditions "need to ignore" are much more transparent to the unbiased objective reader than you appear to have imagined.

On the contrary Rom 2:25-29 specifically speaks to the regenerated - new heart, new creation work of the Holyl Spirit.

so also does Rom 2:14-16 speak of that work done on the heart of the gentiles.

The "Fiction" that Romans 2 starts with "no need to repent because if you have never sinned then you are going to heaven" is flatly debunked by the opening context of the text that the Gospel "goodness and kindness " of God "LEADS you to repentance" Rom 2:4.

In the context of Gospel repentance then we have the "perseverance" of Rom 2:7 -- and eternal life mentioned there.

We have the "Gospel judgment" of Rom 2:13-16.

Except when we notice them "going to heaven" in Rom 2:7, 10 and even approved of in the "Gospel judgment" in Rom 2:13-16 and in fact having their hearts changed - with the manifest fruits of obedience showing it in Rom 2:25-29.

yes --- ... err.. umm "except for that".



in Christ,

Bob

 

Prov. 26:4

 

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

The above statement sets forth the charcteristics and consequences that are applicable to ANYONE who may fit them without demanding anyone DID or WILL fit them.

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

The above statement sets forth the characteristics and consequences without applying them to anyone. It will fit ANYONE who may measure up to the characteristics but does not demand that ANYONE did or will.


10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

The above simply sets forth the consequences for any who would measure up to such things among Jews and Gentiles without demanding anyone did or will.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The above simply provides general principles applicable to anyone who WILL without demanding anyone did or will.

Romans 2:17-29 does not say anyone is saved among these Jews as they are being considered according to the flesh. Romans 2:25-29 does not say any of them have been circumcised in heart but simply states their outer circumcision is worthless unless inner circumcision accompnaies it.

This whole context deals with Jews and Gentiles considered IN THE FLESH and the standards of judgement they can expect that will be fair and just. The LOST man is not judged according to how good and righteous he thinks he is but how good and righteous God's law demands and He will be judged according to His works by just principles and the result of the laws evaluation of the Jew and Gentile AFTER THE FLESH is Romans 3:9-21.

 

Bob, you don't seem to understand. DHK and Dr. Walter are debating circles around you. They continually make their points through exegesis of Scripture in context. All you do is a hack job on Scripture and pretend that you've made a point.

 

ahh - "the choir has spoken" :sleeping_2:

As it turns out - I prefer actual exegesis and responding to the Bible arguments made. :type:

in Christ,

Bob

 

If you do then why not try actual exegesis for a change. It would be refreshing to say the least.

 

A nice "fiction".

Here we have the "real" Gospel call to repentance - combined with the REAL Gospel call of God - calling all to repentance.


Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
Here we have the "real" example of those who reject the Gospel call to repentance and the "real" warning about the "real" result of such action if people do not turn back from it because in the real justment real people will be judged for their real sins.

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

(The real setting for Romans 2 that your response above felt the need to ignore)

Next we have "real" perseverance of the saints - (a dozen or more texts to follow)

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Next we have "real" failure of the real wicked who really reject the gospel

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


And this pattern follows the same teaching of Christ on this very point.

Chris points to the SAME two groups (the failing vs the succeeding examples) and the points to the SAME difference between them.

Matt 7

13 "" Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 ""For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

15 ""Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 ""You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

17 ""So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 ""A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "" Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 ""So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.



in Christ,

Bob

 

One more reminder about Rom 2:7 and perseverance of the saints -- "it is real" --

in Christ,

Bob

 

The term "salvation" includes more than just a past tense completed action of regeneration/conversion/justification. It is a term that is inclusive of past, present and future aspects of salvation which are not to be confused with each other. It is also used for PHYSICAL salvation from eschatalogical events in eschatalogoical contexts. The teachers of apostasy attempt to apply texts that deal with PHYSICAL salvation found in eschatalogical contexts to redemptive salvation.

The works for salvationist people confuse these aspects. Indeed, it is only by confusing these aspects are they able to argue their position at all. Bob's use of scriptures clearly demonstrates such a mind set.

The term "salvation" can be used in some contexts for only the past tense application found in the doctrines of regeneration/conversion/justification. The past tense completed action verbs identify this usage.

The term "salvation" can be used in some contexts dealing strictly with the present tense applications found in the doctrine of progressive sanctification by the Holy Spirit conforming the LIFE of that person to Christ likeness in attitudes, words and actions. The present tense incompleted action verbs describe this aspect of salvation.

The the term "salvation" can be used in some contexts dealing with the future glorification of the body and post-glorification and eternal state of God's people. Future tense verbs describe this aspect of salvation "shall be saved."

Of course apostasy teachers want do deny the distinction between eschatalogical PHYSICAL salvation versus redemptive salvation. They want to deny the three tenses of redemptive salvation as it makes their heretical doctrine of apostasy more difficult to prove.

The past tense aspect of salvation is the basis for entrance into heaven.

The present tense of salvation is the basis for present blessings, growth, usefulness and "abundant entrance" (rewards) in heaven.

The future tense of salvation has to do with the body and its glorification for personal fitness to enter heaven.

It is the present tense aspect of salvation of the daily life or loss of the daily life in connection with putting on the new man or failure to put on the new man but allowing the old man to control the present time so that it is being either redeemed or lost that is critical to understand (Eph. 2:10b; 4:20-24; 5:16-18). What is being saved or lost in present time is our time and works for the glory of God and future rewards.

Another critical distinction is between those texts that deal with the professed child of God as opposed to the true born again child of God. Hebrews 3-4 deal with the professed (heb. 4:1-2) whose heart has never been mixed with faith in the gospel.

 

There are no "real" cases of salvation in Romans 2:1-15. Paul is merely setting forth the general principles that are applicable to any person who will stand in the future before God to be judged by their own merits. The fact that it is FUTURE destroys any argument that real cases are identifiable in this context.

For example, Bob quotes verse 4 as an example of real salvation when in fact no real salvation is described. Paul merely says what the goodness of God SHOULD do not what it DID do. Here is a clear example of eisgesis not exegesis.

Verses 5-7 give conclusions to two different responses to the light God has given them. That light is further described in verses 13-17. The light is "the law" whether it is written upon their conscience as with the Gentile or given by special revelation written upon stone as to the Jews. There are two contrasting response with two contrasting consequences. IF they respond in stubborness and rebellion the curse will occur. IF they persevere in continual well doing eternal life will occur. Neither are an actual or real cases presented but rather a FUTURE alternatives presented and explained.

 

Yes I agree with this

I'm not certain I agree with this. I guess to an extent. However, I have Amillenial leanings.

.

I don't know what a salvationist people is/are. But works are often an issue of confussion.

ok

ok

ok

I'm confused at this point.

ok

ok

Explain please.

 

Beginning in Hebrews 2 we have warnings not let what we have been taught about salvation slip. In Hebrews 3 we are given an example of those who were taught under Moses who did let those things slip and even hardened their hearts. In Hebrews 4:1-2 we are given the underlying reason why they let those things slip and hardened their hearts against the Word of God and went backwards and were not allowed to enter their rest - Caanan but were destroyed by God in the wilderness.

1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Here is the problem that Jesus dealt with all through his ministry. All Israel were professors of God but not every Israelite was a real beleiver in his heart. This is a problem the churches of Christ dealt with (I Jn. 2:19).

Apostasy teachers often use antedotal illustrations of those they knew professed Christ but later rejected Christ as proof that real genuine children of God can apostatize when in fact the Biblical explanation is ignored (Jn. 8:31;Heb. 4:2; I Jn. 2:19).

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Jn. 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free...................They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

These Jews professed to believe in him (Jn. 8:29) but Jesus knew their hearts and knew they were not free from the bondage of sin (Jn. 8:32) and they still were children of the devil (Jn. 8:44).


I Jn. 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

John is talking about those who professed Christ and then later turned against Christ "anti-Christs). They were never really part of God's people and their later turn against Christ demonstrated it rather than demonstrated saved people can lose salvation.

 

You are looking at this through an OSAS filter - so you miss the Bible doctrine on the perseverance of the saints.

Perseverance of the saints reveals the conditional nature of future entry into heaven. This is not to say that "the saints are not the saints" -- the doctrine is not the "perseverance of the lost".

=======================================

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven and of which I Paul was made a minister.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I had more on that list...

Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved."

2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

1Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified

Phil 3
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

 

That speculative idea was already debunked here -

==============

Here we have the "real" Gospel call to repentance - combined with the REAL Gospel call of God - calling all to repentance.


Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?



Here we have the "real" example of those who reject the Gospel call to repentance and the "real" warning about the "real" result of such action if people do not turn back from it because in the real justment real people will be judged for their real sins.

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

(The real setting for Romans 2 that your response above felt the need to ignore)

Next we have "real" perseverance of the saints - (a dozen or more texts to follow)

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Next we have "real" failure of the real wicked who really reject the gospel

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


And this pattern follows the same teaching of Christ on this very point.

Chris points to the SAME two groups (the failing vs the succeeding examples) and the points to the SAME difference between them.

Matt 7

13 "" Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 ""For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

15 ""Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 ""You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

17 ""So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 ""A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "" Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 ""So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

A handy piece of misdirection on your part - but does not hold up to the "inconvenient details" - here is what I said about verse 4 "again".

My point "remains".

Here is the flawed argument of the OSAS filter above.

1. The lost are never told to "persevere" in being lost.
2. At no time does Romans 2 argue "this is all a bunch of fiction about sinless beings who persevere in being sinless".

Rather the starting context for Romans 2 is the Gospel "goodness of God" that in fact LEADS you to "repentance".

Thus the perfect match with the Gospel message of Christ in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them"

The OSAS "filter" you are using wants to imagine that the failure depicted in real in Romans 2 but the success in the context of vs 4 Gospel REPENTANCE and vs 16 Gospel Judgment is all "fake" or some form of imagination EVEN to the degree in which it perfectly fits the teaching of Christ in Matt 7.

in Christ,

Bob