Drawing and John 6

Which could be interrupted as meaning, "no one OF YOU can come to me..." or "no one OF ANYONE IN THE WHOLE WORLD FOR ALL TIME can come to me..." As a Calvinist you are willing to make these allowances in verses where the word "all" is used, so why not here?

But, with that said, I actually can live with either one of those interpretations. I agree that no one at any time can come unless they are drawn. After all, as Paul teaches, "how can they hear without a preacher?" My point is that at this time in history the gospel (which is the means God has appointed to draw all men) has not been sent into all the world, thus they could not come to him.

In Mark 4 it is clear that Jesus is hiding the gospel in parables so as to prevent them from coming to faith. Why? If what you believe is true why would that be necessary? Clearly the gospel has the power to bring men to faith. IT is the power of God unto Salvation and it is NOT sent UNTIL Christ is raised up. That is the error Calvinists make in their interpretation of these passages IMO.

 

Nor do I. I see the context, or more specifically, the historical context helping us understand it.

Yes, they must be drawn, the obvious difference is how you define "drawn." It either means, "to irresistibly change someone's will" or "to invite someone to make a choice." The people of that day and that time were not being invited to be a follower of Christ, they were being hardened. The gospel was being hidden from them in parables and the message had not even been sent to the Gentiles yet. It was only after Christ was lifted up that he sent the gospel into all the world and that is the means He chose to DRAW all men to himself (i.e. John 12).

explain why you think they contradict each other and that will help me know what you are not understanding about my perspective.

By Grace through faith.

 

I was a Calvinist for many years so I understand your point. As you state below, it is God who "irresistibly" causes them to be willing in your view. In my view the man is able to do otherwise than what he ended up doing...in other words it's not "irresistible."

Not really. We both agree that God changed their will, you (or Calvinists in general) just believe he did so irresistibly and that the man had no real part in that decision. I believe God used the means of the gospel to appeal to the man who is responsible (meaning "response able") for making a choice.

Yes, just as Paul teaches that no one can believe in a message unless someone preaches it. We both agree that that "no one can come unless..." Understand?

Irresistibly attracting, you mean, right? Otherwise, we agree.

God provided for man's atonement. God makes the appeal for all men to be reconciled. If God "changes" or controls man's will then it's not the man's will, it's God's will. There is no other will except His in that system of thought. He is the only actor, decider and agent in the universe and that doesn't seem consistent with the biblical account to me.

Could God convince any man to come to him? Sure He could. This is not about what God could do. This is about what God has done and what He wants. I believe He wants people who choose to worship him in spirit and in truth. I think he seeks this out. If he simply MADE his creatures worship him then what is the difference in that and simply making the rocks cry out?

 

The drawing that Jesus is referring to is further explained in John 6:45 and John 6:64-65.

In verse 45 it is instruction by God to "all" God's covenant people. He is quoting an Old Testament prophet in verse 45 that deals with "all" the people of the covnenant. "EVERYONE" of those covenant people are taught, that is they have heard from God and have learned from God and "EVERYONE" that has does come.

In John 6:64-65 Jesus reveals that he knows who of his professed disciples really do not believe in Him and which of those unbelievers will betray him. It is these that verses later are said to have walked with him no more. Verse 65 provides the explanation why they did not believe in him (even though they professed it). Verse 65 is a direct reference to verse 44 but Jesus changes terms. Instead of using the term "draw" he uses the terms "given unto him." What those in verse 64 lacked was true saving faith and that is what the Father did not "given unto" them.

Furthermore, drawing involves an INTERNAL CHANGE wrought by God. Every lost person has LOVE for sin and HATE for Light (Jn. 3:19-20). This is what prevents them from coming to the light:

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

For any sinner to come to the light their love for sin must be changed into hate for sin and their hate for light must be transformed into love for light. This change is what the New Covenant refers to when God says:

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This inward transformation of love to hate and hate to love is not something any human being is able to do or wants to do or participates in. It is a creative act of God called the new birth.

Notice that John 6:45 says "ALL" of those the prophet refers to will be taught of God and "EVERYONE" thus taught "cometh unto me." Furthermore, the "he" that is drawn in verse 44 is the same "he" that will be raised again to eternal life in verse 44.

What is "given unto him" in verse 65 is what was missing in verse 64 - saving faith. However, saving faith follows rather than precedes godly sorrow unto repentance (love to hate, hate to love).
This internal change of love life is giving a new heart and spirit or regeneration by God. The human manifestation of being given a new heart (love for sin changed to hate for sin, hate for light changed to love for light) is repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

 

Again, this is a good restatement of your position, but it doesn't fully address the "irresistibly" issue as it relates to John 12:32 use of the the same word "draw" in regard to God's plan to "draw all men" to himself AFTER Christ is lifted up. The mistake that you and Calvinists make is to ignore the historical context of the time while Christ was on earth. The gospel had not yet been sent to the Gentiles and it was being hidden in parables or blinded from most of Israel. Why? BECAUSE the gospel is the power of God unto Salvation and he did not want many coming to salvation before the crucifixion. The reason the people of John 6 could not come to Christ wasn't because of their depraved natures and being non-elect. The reason they could not believe was because they were being hardened. John 12:39-41 spells that out as clearly as it can be.

We agree on this point. If left to himself men would only hate the light and love darkness, but God hasn't left mankind alone. He has sent Christ, the apostles, the scripture (gospel), the church and the Holy Spirit to reveal Himself and appeal to the world for reconciliation. You must not simply address man's nature as if man has been left on his own, but you must prove that that these means alone (without the prior world of regeneration) are somehow insufficient to bring reconciliation. That is NEVER taught in scripture.

I notice how you never highlight the part that tells us WHY men love darkness. It says, "BECAUSE THEIR DEEDS WERE EVIL" and "FOR EVER ONE THAT DOETH EVIL..." That can be understood to mean that men can ONLY ever choose evil even when presented with the powerful Holy Spirit wrought gospel truth, or it could mean that those who chose to continue in their evil ways when presented with the gospel truth will become hardened and defiled and be "given over" to their sin (i.e. Rom 1) and thus will hate the light and refuse it. But as I have presented numerous times Paul teaches what the ability of man might be if not hardened (Acts 28), "they might see, hear, understand and turn to be healed."

 

If John 12:32 is contextually interpreted it fits perfect with the interpretation of John 6 as given in my former post.

Note the differences. In John 6 who is the one drawing? - The Father. In John 12 who is the one drawing? - The Son. In John 6 who is the audiance? - Jews. In John 12 who is the audiance - Jews and Gentiles.

20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.

The term "men" is not in the Greek text and it is found in italics in the KJV. The term "all" is found without the definite article and is the comman way to express "all kinds" or "all classes" of mankind. The context calls for it as one class of mankind the Jews rejected and regarded as unclean is in the audiance and is seeking Christ.

The truth between John 6 and John 12 is that the drawing activity of the Father and the Son is not limited to Jews only but to "all classes" and "all kinds" of mankind - all without distinction rather than all without exception. Furthermore, in the covenant of redemption (Jn. 6:45 "all" shall be taught) more than Jews are included.

People were saved from Genesis 3:15 looking forward to the coming Messiah (Acts 10:43; 26:22-23; Heb. 4:2) as much as after the cross. So Christ was not attempting to prevent anyone from coming to him before the cross. Indeed, he never had to prevent them from coming as that is the nature of every human being both Jew and gentile. They love darkeness rather than light and wont' come to the ligt (Christ).

When the fresh wet clay is brought into contact with the light of the Sun that very contact will begin the hardening process because of the very NATURE of the clay. The Sun does nothing different to the clay than it does to the butter - the same light. The difference is found in the distinction of nature between the clay and butter.

The lost unregenerated man before or after Calvary, Jew or Gentile have the very same identical human nature and that nature is described by Christ in John 3:19-21. It already has by nature hatred for light because it is born with a sinful nature manifested by sins. It already has by nature love for darkness and therefore resists, rejects and will not come to the light.

Whether it is the light of conscience, the light in nature or the light of God's Word or the light of the world the response of the human nature in all ethnic groups at any time in any age is always the same BECAUSE THAT IS THE HUMAN NATURE.

It freely loves darkeness and freely hates light and freely resists all forms of light. The resistance is manifested in various ways. In perversion of the light (turning the knowledge of God into idolatry, or turning the knowledge of the truth in to false religion) but in all cases the sinner does not choose to seek God according to God's way.

Those things you call "means" have no bearing on this fallen nature. Saul heard the gospel hundreds of times in every person that professed Christ and was jailed, persecuted, killed or caused to blaspheme and it produced NOTHING until "WHEN IT PLEASED GOD to reveal His son IN" him (Gal. 1:16). It produced NOTHING until God made it His CREATIVE word to produce LIGHT IN HIM (2 Cor. 4:6).

Only the PERSON of the Holy Spirit can change the inside of a man where a heart that loves sin is change to hate sin where a heart that hates light is changed to love light. This change of heart by its very nature precedes any kind of willingness on the part of such a sinner and only God can change the heart and it is this supernatural change of heart by God that is the "CAUSE" for any kind of willingness to conform with any choice to submit to God in any way:

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Notice the new heart and new spirit PRECEDE and is what will CAUSE obedience to God, His word, His gospel, His will.

One final note. 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 clearly and explicitly state that the basis for knowing you are the elect of God is becuase the gospel did not come to you "in word only" but in POWER and ASSURANCE and in the HOLY SPIRIT. Deny that exception and you deny the very distinction Paul is asserting that gives you that knowledge. That is exactly what you are doing! You are denying any distinction between the elect and non-elect in regard to how the gospel comes to them.

 

The problem with this type of reasoning is that it makes God to appear as though he cannot properly express himself. If God wanted to say he would draw only certain Jews or Gentiles, then God could easily say that. I am just a man, but if I wanted you to know that only certain persons are drawn and not all men, I could say that. In fact, I just did.

But Jesus said that he would draw "all" men. This word does not give the impression of only calling a limited number of men.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

If you take the italicized word "men" out of John 12:32, it becomes stronger, not weaker in clearly stating he would draw 100% of men to himself.

Calvinists find themselves correcting God and implying God does not know how to clearly and distinctly express himself. This is absurd, if Jesus wanted us to understand that only certain persons are drawn, he could have easily said so.

 

All means all, it is you and others who are trying to narrow it. I understood Dr. Walter, and I understand you, you are both trying to limit the definition of the word all.

If Jesus wanted to say he would draw certain or particular Jews or Gentiles, he could have easily said so. I think it is the height of arrogance for Calvinists to act as though Jesus could not clearly express himself and say exactly what he meant.

It is in fact you that is forcing an interpretation that is not shown.

 

No, I am not saying all always means 100% of all men. But in John 12:32 it does.

If I said all men in the army barracks came down with the flu, then of course I am speaking of a limited number of men.

But if I said all men eat food, then I do mean 100% of all men.

Show in the context of John 12:32 where the word does not mean all (100%) of all men. In fact, Jesus was speaking in context of the whole world, look at John 12:31

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

There is nothing in the language of John 12:32 that would cause it to mean other than 100% of all mankind.

 

Wait, I thought it meant a pair of ducks (quack, quack).

HankD

 

Does the words "all men" mean 100% of all men that have ever lived from Adam to the last man in the following texts???

Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Did Peter mean 100% of "all men" that have ever lived and will live except him when he said this:

Mt 26:33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.


Mr 1:37 And when they had found him, they said unto him, All men seek for thee.

Mr 5:20 And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.

Mr 11:32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.

Mr 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Joh 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

Joh 11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.

Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Ac 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Ac 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

Ac 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

Ac 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

Ac 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

Ro 16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.


Ac 22:15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

Lu 3:15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;

Lu 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.


Mt 19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

2Th 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2Ti 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.

So much for your argument that the words "all men" mean 100% of all men who have lived or who are alive or will live or all men in any one of these three categories.

 

I would disagree. In every verse you have provided except 2 Thess 3:2 all does men all if understood in the context it is spoken.

 

There are too many pages to read them all, so I apologize if someone has already covered this.

41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Those who are drawn are raised up at the last day. If you're drawn, you're saved. If you're not drawn, you can't come to Jesus. Pretty simple.

Later, Jesus refers back to what he said...

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Again, very simple. Loose translation: "See? I know who believes and who doesn't, because they won't believe unless it has been granted to him by the Father. Like I said before, nobody comes to me... etc."

All the debate about the possible subtleties of what the word "draw" or "all" means is a waste of time and energy in trying to determine what this passage means. It's plain as day.

 

Hey Npet, it's good to have you back! Long time, no see.

You're welcome to enter the fray against the wiles of Winman. You've had the chance to renew your batteries -- I'm tired of his unwillingness to submit to God's Word.

 

Drawing and John Ch. 6

Dear JBH,

You see this the same way I do, my precious Brother!! Without "election", there would be no one saved. Whenever God "draws" someone, that's "election" in a nutshell. The "elect" are those that choose to serve Him. I know my doctrines of grace Brethren will not agree with me, but that's okay. God draws, and man can either come willingly, or reject Him. Take care!!

Willis