Defining "the law" as used in New Testament

HP: DW, show us why it could not be truthfully said you are teaching an antinomian gospel and a sinning religion.

 

HP: What an outright misrepresentation of the facts. DW, you are trying so hard to elevate your sinning religion while degrading everyone else that you have lost touch with truth completely here. Have you no understanding of the word repentance and the consequences of true repentance?

 

True. He calls the saints "obedience" in vs 1-17 -

In Romans 1:18-32 Paul addresses the lost world that are NOT the readers of the letter to the Roman church using the term "THEY".

Romans 2:1-29 is speaking again to "you" - the readers of the letter in Rome. Condemnation in Romans 2 is not to the saved saints of Rom 1:1-17.

Speaking to the lost - Paul does not say in vs 1-3 that HE is the one doing those things - nor that the saints mentioned in vs 1-17 of chapter 1 are doing those things.

Romans 2 vs 5-29 shows BOTH the failing and the succeeding cases among jews and the gentiles. The succeeding cases fit perfectly with the saints of chapter 1.

Rom 2 Gospel context is the "Goodness of God that leads to repentance" vs 4. Gospel Justification of vs 13-16. The chapter also deals with the lost among both Jews and Gentiles.

No surprise there.

Then in Romans 3 Paul begins to deal with the more basic issue of salvation for lost mankind in general. Showing that the continued authority of the Law of God declares ALL mankind to be lost and in need of the Gospel.
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Romans 1:1-7 begins with the “Gospel of God” vs 1 and the point that the apostles are calling for the “obedience of the faith among all the gentiles” vs 5.

It is there that we see that the letter is most certainly directed to gentiles “obedience of faith among all the gentiles for His name’s sake among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ” vs 5-6

The Letter further points to the intended readers in this way “to ALL who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace”. Vs 7.

Paul is actually giving thanks in Chapter 1 for the faith of those to whom he is writing “I thank God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world”

James 2 states that the faith of the saints is shown by their obedience.

Paul in Romans 1 argues for the "obedience of faith".

5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles
for His name's sake,
6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


Amazed to find that this is the very chapter where we are sometimes told to imagine that Paul is describing only “failure” and never “success” in the Gospel of Christ.

Paul affirms this portion of his letter written to his contemporaries – brothers and sisters in Christ. “that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, each of us by the other’s faith, both yours and mine…” vs 12.

This is not a “you are all failing in the eyes of God” chapter – not by a long shot!
Romans 1:14-17 is explicitly referencing the Gospel condition.

Even when it gets down to vs 13 – Paul still refers to the reader as his brethren “I do not want you to be unaware brethren” speaking to the Romans as those who are to be included as “among the rest of the gentiles” with whom Paul has also being obtaining fruit in the Gospel.

Paul continues with the introductory “gospel” theme in chapter 1 “thus for my part I am eager to preach the Gospel to you also who are in Rome.. for I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God for salvation.. to the Jew first and also to the Greek”. Vs 15-16

That is the key phrase for the next chapter and a half because Paul shows both the succeeding Gospel examples “to the Jew first and also to the Greek” – as well as the failing examples among both Jews and Gentiles using that same key phrase.

Vs 17 “For in it” (the Gospel mentioned in vs 15-16) the righteousness of God is revealed from Faith to Faith” as it is written “but the Righteous shall live by Faith” Habakkuk 2:4.

In Vs 18-32 Paul points to the wrath of God “against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men.. who although THEY know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, THEY not only do the same, but also give hearty practice to those who practice them” vs 18, vs 32. Switching from "you" to "they".


These are what Paul calls "barbarians" who have no access to the Word of God.


14 I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress
the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
being understood through what has been made[/u], so that they are without excuse.

 

There is no "sliding scale" argument being made in Rom 2 by the lost. Rather the lost among the Jews suppose that "being a Jew" is sufficient to get them saved - based on the arbitrary selection of the Jews over the gentiles - regardless of what they are doing.

It is an early form of Calvinism.

Paul counters by saying that God is NOT partial - He is not selecting out one over the other for some arbitrary idea like race or culture - but that all are judged on the subject of obedience to the Law of God.

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified

That is right - Gospel "justification" in that future judgment is being explicitly discussed in Romans 2. Pretty surprising for those who imagine that only "failing Jews" are discussed in Romans 2.

At no point do those condemned in vs 11-29 claim to believe in a sliding scale - rather they believe in the concept of arbitrary selection, reflected in the Calvinist doctrine on that same point.

In Romans 2 Paul speaks to the perseverance of the saints - arguing that those who persevere are those who inherit eternal life. This is the work of the saints - the born-again.

Predictably you have circled back to the case of the lost and the justification that is past - even in a Romans 2 chapter where the perseverance of the saints is being discussed - in the context of future Gospel justification is the subject - just like Dan 7:22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints".

In Heb 6:1 Paul argues that such circling back is merely rejecting the mature food of scripture and continually focused on the start. Paul says "leaving the elementary things" -- in his effort to get the reader of that letter to get to the more weighty doctrinal topics.

in Christ,

Bob

 

When you circle back to the problem for the lost - you do well in getting the points straight. Where you struggle is in the Bible doctrine of the perseverance of the saints.

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

"But what matters is keeping the commandments of God". 1Cor 7:19

in Christ,

Bob

 

HP: Certainly all believers grow in grace, but where is “progressive” sanctification taught in Scripture?? It would seem to me just as impossible to believe in progressive sanctification as it would be to believe in progressive regeneration. Death is no sanctifier. Death is the last enemy. Scripture teaches we can be now, in this present world, sanctified. I would like to see you produce a single solitary text that depicts sanctification as something accomplished in heaven.

Here are just a few that depict sanctification as something completed in this present world. 2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Jude 1:1 ¶ Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Certainly sanctification can be thought of in differing senses, but that is a far cry from just pulling ‘progressive’ sanctification out of thin air. Shall we call your 'progressive' sanctification 'another' sanctification? That would certainly seem appropriate to me.

 

HP: One.

HP: Just hate your brother once in your heart will do.

HP: Just one.

HP: Just one.

Now with those questions answered, listen to the Word of God concerning a truly repentant believer and praise the Lord with me!!

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

HP: Says who?? DW?? Let God’s Word be true and everyman a liar.

Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this PRESENT world; (EM)

There is a perfect picture of the sanctified life. It is not simply something conferred upon us after death, but a present living reality to be experienced by all believers, IN THIS PRESENT WORLD, that have ears to hear and a heart of love set on obedience towards God.

 

HP: Saints are those living godly in Christ Jesus. That involves personal holiness on our part with the help proffered by the Holy Spirit. There is absolutely no doubt that all that persevere in obedience and love will find their eternal rest in Him!

That still begs the question who are in Christ and who might simply be deceived. Many will in the end be deceived you know. If one lacks fruit of obedience, what will they find as evidence of their salvation when they fulfill the command to examine “themselves???”

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

HP: I am reminded of the words of Paul. 1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

 

HP: I wonder what conclusion the good Dr. would find exploring the tense of the word or salvation in Scripture? Hmmmm

Here might be one to start with. Lu 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

Shall we conclude that because salvation here is obviously speaking of an ongoing progressive action (for all are not saved in the same moment) that salvation cannot or is not accomplished in this present world?

 

HP: Very well, then we shall just leave it to God to sort out who is really telling the truth. Moving right along…..:thumbs: