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A Balanced Calvinism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin Marprelate, Jan 3, 2011.

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  1. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Actually I was referring to your entire post.
    You share monergistic traits with Roman Catholics, I guess that makes you a priest.
    Not really one to talk about logical conclusions, particularly when the logic you employ here is as horrendous as this.
    Of course you can supply the quote where I state I'm an expert...just like I can supply the quote where you state you are new to your theology and NOT an expert. You sure learned quite a bit in a month!
    It really is...your attitude change, that is.
     
  2. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    "He who is altogether and only a Calvinist probably only knows half the Truth of God, but he who is willing to take the other side, as far as it is true, and to believe all he finds in the Word of God, will get the whole pearl." —Charles Spurgeon, "Buying the Truth"
     
  3. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    As I figured, your rebuttal failed miserably. Absolutely no substance.

    You know Kenneth Copeland shares your same theological view. At least he has the gall to go full out in the open with it.

    A month? Child please! It's only been 3 weeks! Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

    Lighten up, Francis!!!

    :wavey:
     
  4. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    And another non-response, response.

    You would think a "pastor for truth" could do better than that.

    That's a great idea! Ignore the truth instead of discussing it civily.
     
    #144 webdog, Jan 6, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2011
  5. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    God IS the plane... The "plane" is salvation. What other plan is there? Can we "work" to earn salvation (or even the right to approach God)?

    I can see why you would say that it is a matter of perception. That is about the only leg left on your stool. It doesn't solve your dilemma, however. God is not really about perceptions, He is about truth and though truth can be viewed from multiple angles it cannot be both A and non-A at the same time and in the same place. That would violate the Law of Non-Contradiction.

    Which is true, except, that praise God, "when the fullness of time had come, He sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law..." Where there is no way in human terms, God makes a way on His own terms. Thanks for citing John 3:18. That passage essentially says what I just said. Christ came to save sinners. Note that it does not say that "sinners come to Christ to be saved."

    Point taken...

    I am trying to be nice and give you the benefit of the doubt. If you like, I can be more forceful.

    So none of what you wrote about my only being able to see things one way because of my "position" isn't the same as bringing up a label. Wording it softly doesn't change the tenor of your argument. See the point directly above this...

    I grasp it well... I also reject it. Understanding a point and accepting a point are two different arguments. I'm bringing meat to the table, you are using one-liners to shoot my points down. How about you bring the positive argument for synergism from the Scriptures like I asked WAY above?

    Just to be clear (and I'm not using this as a debate point because that would be an argument from authority) I have been the pastor of a congregation in a church that was as far Arminian (Pelagian in practice!) as a congregation can get. They were in a General Baptist denomination that recoiled from hyper-Calvinism circa 1825. I am SO versed in the arguments from the Arminian or IFB perspective that I can play the role without fail. But I reject the Arminian argument for all the reasons I cite above in actual debate points.

    While I was pastor of those good people for 5 years, the number one question I took was, "Pastor, how can I pray to regain my salvation. I sinned last night..." They had adopted synergism to a logical conclusion and with it, had come to hold that their salvation depended on their continual coming to the Lord to become purified. The only time they embraced monergism was in the case of infants and children and "retarded" (their word, in their articles of faith) people, of whom they claimed God would just save whether or not they wanted salvation. My response to all that silliness was to suggest that I start causing retardation or wiping out infants so as to insure the salvation of the flock! Of course, they did not take kindly to that sort of talk, even when I was laughing my head off when I said it. The logical inconsistencies and scriptural inconsistencies in their system of theology were emphasized to me repeatedly during my ministry tenure.

    Oh, and they were not evangelistic at all. All talk and no action. I ended up leaving the pastorate because one of the deacons had a problem with the fact that he had to try to lead an unsaved husband of a church member to Christ (really!) while I was on a mission trip.

    I've shared the testimony above to say again, that I UNDERSTAND your points. I simply do not accept them.

    I've worked with congregations (I was also associational moderator for 3 years, leading 7 churches and participated with their national and international ministries including writing articles for their journal) who were Arminian to the nth degree and the ones I've seen are more worried about what is wrong with people outside the church than in presenting the saving gospel with those people. And, that is exactly where Arminianism (or any like derivative) leads eventually, for if one has to come to Christ in faith, then EVERYTHING they do wrong before they are truly saved (if they ever are truly saved under that sort of system) must be "corrected" in their way of life without the help of the only One who CAN help them, Christ!

    I'm out of town for several days, so I expect that this thread will be closed by the time I return. If you have further questions, don't hesitate to ask in another thread.
     
  6. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Yep. God sought us like the lost lamb, found us, rescued us, saved us and brought us to the fold.

    All we could give Him was our sin. All we could do when He grasped us is admit we believe, already safe in His arms as He alone sought us out and did all of the saving, and the choosing.

    All we can do is thank Him and say we believe.
     
    #146 preacher4truth, Jan 6, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2011
  7. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Sovereign means control in it's most basic form. It means to rule. To rule means to govern conduct.

    I understand that Arminians DO believe in umbrella sovereignty. They DO believe that God rules the universe and the earth. They EVEN believe he governs the affairs of men to a certain degree.

    What they do NOT believe, and what some Calvinists do not believe- I think because they have not thought it through- is that God is sovereignly ruling over each choice, each action of every person.

    The Arminian and some Calvinists who have not thought it through believe- even though they would not say it this way- that God has forfeited sovereignty over what man chooses to man. They believe that God rules in so much that he GIVES them choices, and is there overseeing the choices and is able to manipulate the outcome to suit His will, but they do not believe that what man chooses is up to God. It COULD be if God wanted it to be- but they believe that God has chosen to let men rule their choices; men govern their decisions; what men choose is up to THEM.

    That is not exhaustive sovereignty.

    Joseph said to his brothers- "You meant it for evil but God meant it for good."

    God meant it. God did it. God did not just allow them to DO it- God meant it to happen.

    THAT is exhaustive sovereignty.

    Did Joseph's brothers make a choice? Yes. Did they choose to do with Joseph what they most wanted to do? Yes. Did God intend for them to do it? Yes. Did they do EXACTLY what God WANTED them to do- the Bible is clear- YES.

    I think your only alternative is to conclude that things happen that God does not wish would happen even though he is more than able to work them out.

    I do not believe that there is anything that can happen that God does not ultimately wish would happen.

    I do not believe that, in a universe created by an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God, that it is even POSSIBLE for things to happen that he does not ultimately will to happen.

    I believe it is impossible for God to forfeit his rule and control over a single rotation of a single electron around a single neutron anywhere in the universe.

    God cannot, NOT rule, over and in and through anything- including man's choices.
     
  8. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Then Jesus Christ does not love God the Father.

    He does not choose to love him- it is his divine nature and he can do nothing else.

    Love, the best of loves, the holiest and mightiest of loves- absolutely does not require choice at all.

    Tell the Son of God that his love is not real. Tell him if his love were real then he could choose right now to hate God the Father.

    Don't do that, BTW. I would tremble in terror at the thought of such remarks were I you.
     
  9. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Where does it say some are predestined to hell and the others are predestined to heaven. The predestined are the called according to purpose. What purpose does God have for the called? To go to heaven? These same called in verse 23 of Romans 8 are said to be those, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit. What does firstfruits mean? Some receive it now and others later? Is that how it is meant in 1 Cor. 15:20,23 Christ the fristfruits, risen from the dead, others later just as he was? Is this not how first as a prefix is used? What about firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have preeminence. Isn't that what preeminence means he received it before us.

    Do you believe God is calling all of mankind presently or does he call according to the feast of harvests?
    Presently beginning on Pentecost the day of firstfruits he is calling those of the firstfruits of the Spirit and later there will be the feast of ingathering.

    Only the predestined are presently being called for a purpose.
     
  10. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    God worketh ALL things after the counsel of his own will Ephesians 1:11

    For of him and through him and to him are ALL THINGS- Romans 11:36

    In him we live and move and have our being- Acts 17

    HE is before all things and by Him ALL THINGS consist- Col 1

    All things include damnation and evil just as well as they include salvation and good.

    God ordains all things for his own purposes which are for his own glory.
     
    #150 Luke2427, Jan 6, 2011
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  11. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    You may not be intending this, but your post seems to imply that God is directly responsible for every action. If that is the case, then God would be guilty of sin. I don't see this as biblically possible.

    He permits evil to occur, but he does not cause it directly.

    I believe it is possible for God to allow cause and effect to result in actions. He is sovereign over these actions, as the very existence of matter depends on his will continually. However, he would not need to make an extra act in order to shape a person's will. He could do so, but he could also allow cause and effect to run its course.
     
  12. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    "Don't let anyone under pressure to give in to evil say, "God is trying to trip me up." {or "God has ordained/caused/decreed this evil"} God is impervious to evil, and puts evil in no one's way. The temptation to give in to evil comes from us and only us. We have no one to blame but the leering, seducing flare-up of our own lust."

    -James, the apostle
     
  13. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Very well stated. Kudos.
     
  14. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Where in scripture does it teach that for God to be Sovereign that he must be the only one who makes choices? When a child molester and murder chooses to sexually abuse a 5 year old and then slice her in the bits was that God's original choice? Ridiculous.

    I know some think an example like this is insidious, but its given to show the absurdity and absolute anti-biblical nature of such a belief. God doesn't even tempt men to evil according to James, yet you seem to have God determining not only the temptation but the choice to sin itself. That is a false teaching and not the true biblical teaching of Divine sovereignty.
     
  15. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    It does not imply that God is guilty of sin. God cannot sin- on this you and I fully agree.

    The reason it is not sin for God to ordain that evil exist is motive.

    Motive is what makes something good or evil.

    Joseph said, "You meant it for evil but God meant it for good."

    Did Joseph's brothers throw him in that pit? Yes.

    Did God throw Joseph in that pit? Yes. He meant it just as much as Joseph's brothers meant it.

    But Joseph's brothers' motives were evil.

    God's motive for doing the exact same action was good.

    Same action- different motives. Joseph's brothers sinned, God saved much people alive.

    Same action but not morally equivalent.

    Job is another. Satan did it for evil but God did it for good.

    Satan and God BOTH harmed Job- but God did it for high and holy reasons. Satan did it for dark and evil reasons.

    God can will evil to come to pass for the highest and holiest of reasons and not sin.

    It comes down to motive.

    God intended for Adam to fall.

    Adam was evil in falling.

    God was holy in bringing it to pass.

    How was God holy? His motive was the glory of Christ.

    Without the fall there is no God commending his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

    Without the fall there is no "that in the ages to come he might show forth the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus" Ephesians 2.

    But because God willed the fall of man there will be a multitude which no man can number which will sing forever the praises of the Lamb who died for us.

    That man fall is a small price to pay for Christ to receive such honor forever.

    God's motive was high and holy. Therefore God willing that sin should exist does not make God a sinner because MOTIVE is what makes something sin or righteous.

    There is no higher motive that the glory of God for ANYTHING.
     
  16. slave 4 Christ

    slave 4 Christ New Member

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    I know what your saying.

    It would be "ridiculous" to believe that God would allow, in fact make it His will beforehand, a Father to give his only son, who was absolutely innocent, into the hands of murderous men. And for what, to save other men just as wicked.

    Acts 2:23
    23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

    Is God sovereign here......then HE is sovereign everywhere.

    I know some might find this "insidious", but this is no example. This is the reality of God's superior wisdom.

    Let he that hath ears to hear hear.

    Eph. 1:4-9
    4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

    9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
     
  17. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I didn't say that.

    Yes it was. The family can find consolation in the fact that God had a purpose for bringing this tragic event to pass.

    It was not purposeless and random. It will serve a great end.

    The one who performed the wicked deed who did so out of some vile passions did it for evil.

    But God meant it for good.

    No, pardon me, but it has nothing to do with the Bible. It is designed to do nothing but stir powerful emotions rather than to promote rational Scriptural truth.

    The Word of God is plain: "Of him and through him and to him are ALL THINGS."

    God has a purpose for everything- even evil.

    Amos 3:6
    Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done [it]?

    God does not tempt men to evil but that does not mean that God does not will it to exist and that he does not ultimately bring it to pass.

    The deed of Joseph's brothers was EVIL. But God MEANT it. The Word of God is clear.
     
  18. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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  19. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I also agree with you here. However that does not mean that Calvin's comcept and I guess it was his that all but the predestined go to hell. That is an assumption not a bible truth.
     
  20. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    No, that is a biblical truth!

    You have assumed that we must DO something sinful to merit damnation. We do not have to DO anything, nor can we do anything, for it is not an act of sin that damns, but rather the fact that we are sinners.

    To those above arguing about evil, know that evil is not "something" i.e., created, but rather the lack of something. Misunderstanding that concept leads to all sort of theological errors. "Nothing" cannot be an act of God, therefore evil, which is nothing, cannot be God's action.
     
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