Does this indicate a choice?

This is not a Calvinist position. You are arguing that salvation is dependent on doctrine taught by men. If God simply regenerates who he desires to be saved, how could doctrine affect it? If God regenerates them they will be saved regardless of what they hear, and if God decides to pass them by they will be lost regardless of what they hear.
If salvation is all of God, how can doctrine taught by men have any effect? Are you saying it is necessary for preachers to teach right doctrine before God can regenerate men? Does a man have to hear proper doctrine before God can regenerate him? This makes salvation dependent upon men.

 

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Who will have all men to be saved - That is, it is in accordance with his nature, his feelings, his desires. The word "will" cannot be taken here in the absolute sense, denoting a decree like that by which he willed the creation of the world, for then it would certainly be done. But the word is often used to denote a desire, wish, or what is in accordance with the nature of anyone. Thus it may be said of God that he "wills" that his creatures may be happy - because it is in accordance with his nature, and because he has made abundant provision for their happiness - though it is not true that he wills it in the sense that he exerts his absolute power to make them happy. God wills that sickness should be relieved, and sorrow mitigated, and that the oppressed should go free, because it is agreeable to his nature; though it is not true that he wills it in the sense that he exerts his absolute power to produce it. A parent wills the welfare of his child. It is in accordance with his nature, his feelings, his desires; and he makes every needful arrangement for it. If the child is not virtuous and happy, it is his own fault. So God wills that all people should be saved. It would be in accordance with his benevolent nature. He has made ample provision for it. He uses all proper means to secure their salvation. He uses no positive means to prevent it, and if they are not saved it will be their own fault. For places in the New Testament where the word here translated "will" (θέλω thelō), means to desire or wish, see Luke 8:20; Luke 23:8; John 16:19; Galatians 4:20; Mark 7:24; 1 Corinthians 7:7; 1 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Corinthians 14:5; Matthew 15:28. This passage cannot mean, as many have supposed, that God wills that all kinds of people should be saved, or that some sinners of every rank and class may be saved, because:

(1) the natural and obvious interpretation of the language is opposed to such a sense. The language expresses the desire that "all men" should be saved, and we should not depart from the obvious sense of a passage unless necessity requires it.

(2) prayer and thanksgiving 1 Timothy 2:1 are directed to be offered, not for some of all ranks and conditions, but for all mankind. No exception is made, and no direction is given that we should exclude any of the race from the expressions of our sympathy, and from an interest in our supplications. The reason given here for that prayer is, that God desires that all people should be saved. But how could this be a reason for praying for all, if it means that God desired only the salvation of some of all ranks?

(3) in 1 Timothy 2:5-6 the apostle gives reasons showing that God wished the salvation of all people, and those reasons are such as to prove that the language here is to be taken in the most unlimited sense. Those reasons are:

(a) that there is one God over all, and one Mediator between God and people - showing that God is the Father of all, and has the same interest in all; and,

(b) that Christ gave himself a ransom for all - showing that God desired their salvation.

This verse proves:

(1) that salvation is provided for all - for if God wished all people to be saved, he would undoubtedly make provision for their salvation; and if he had not made such provision, it could not be said that he desired their salvation, since no one can doubt that he has power to provide for the salvation of all;

(2) that salvation should be offered to all people - for if God desires it, it is right for his ministers to announce that desire, and if he desires it, it is not proper for them to announce anything contrary to this;

(3) that people are to blame if they are not saved.

If God did not wish their salvation, and if he had made no provision for it, they could not be to blame if they rejected the gospel. If God wishes it, and has made provision for it, and they are not saved, the sin must be their own - and it is a great sin, for there is no greater crime which a man can commit than to destroy his own soul, and to make himself the eternal enemy of his Maker.

And to come unto the knowledge of the truth - The truth which God has revealed; the "truth as it is in Jesus." notes, Ephesians 4:21.

http://bible.cc/1_timothy/2-4.htm

 

Well Ive experienced doctrine interpeted very differently depending on which groups you belong to so a Hyper or Neo Calvinist can act on Scripture very differently than a Calvinist like myself so you should not make blanket statements. For example Im sure you know the difference from Predestination & Double Predestination. I subscribe to the 1st mentioned.

Now I believe that a Calvinist still sins & still repents or has need to in order to be right with God. The point is that just because you are reformed does not exonerate you from prayer, from repentance, from taking the word out to others. If you think it does than you dont understand the vast majority of Reformed that live amongst you. And you are doing a disservice to them by painting an incorrect picture of them.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Does that mean you are just like the rest of us "theological low-lifes"? Do you also put your pants on one leg at a time?

 

God's will is NOT always done. That is foolish to think that way.
God's will is not in abortion.
God's will is not in murder.
God's will is not in disobeying the Ten Commandments or his moral law.

And yet mankind goes against the will of God every day, and that includes you. Every time you sin God's will is not being done. Christ taught us to pray:
Hallowed by thy name; thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
--We are to beseech God that his will would be done in our lives on this earth as it is in heaven. Why? Because it isn't. It takes effort. We pray that God would give us the strength to do his will. His will is rarely accomplished as it is in heaven/

God's will is that all men be saved.
God's will is that none should perish.
God's will is that all should come to repentance.

The reason that not all of them do is because of their own free will they choose to reject Christ. They perish because of their own folly.
God doesn't not force anyone to be saved.
God does not make robots out of the elect.
If 2Pet.3:9 and 1Tim.2:4 refers only to the elect then the Calvinist has added to the word of God and is twisting the word of God for their own theological ends, for those verses do not read that way. That is sad, and amazingly pitiful.

 

Yea, I used to think that too until I learned better. It is what most people think who still live in the elementary stages of Christianity. I finally arrived at the point that I believed the BIBLE rather than what I found palatable.

Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isa 45:5-7 I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides Me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides Me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Acts 4:27-28 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place.

Only in their hearts. Their deeds were decreed from before time began.

When you really want to discuss the matter rather than try to show me up, I will be glad to explain this to you.

But it is evident that you are only interested in defeating me rather than uncovering the TRUTH by saying my statements are "foolish".

Yea, that's obviously not true. It would be except for this thing called- the BIBLE.

The verses above are sufficient to prove this.

Yes. His will is almost NEVER accomplished in the exact same fashion that his will is accomplished in Heaven.

I'll elaborate on this if you wish to DISCUSS the matter.

It is God's will that men of all kinds be saved- potentates, priests and paupers. God wills that men of all kinds should be saved so we should pray for all kinds of men.

Further elaboration is available at your sincere request.

God's will is that none of HIS to whom he promised to retrieve should perish. God is longsuffering to USward...

I do not suppose there is a theological system on earth today nor in the history of the world that purports that God FORCES anyone to be saved.

I do not suppose there is a theological system on earth today nor in the history of the world that purports that God makes robots out of his elect.

What is sad and pitiful is that you do not know any better at this late date in your Christian life.

 

Discord

What is wrong is men telling someone that where God is brought them to in their life through His word is wrong?

Since those who are going to be saved no matter what we do why to do men think they are called to being discord to brothers who have such a beautiful message? I do believe that those who do are trampling on such a great pearl. The greatest part of the Pharisees and scribes knew the word of God word for word, but was not looking for the heart of the word. I never looked to memorize scripture, but to obtain the heart of it.

 

What poster here has even intimated such a thing?!

 

Every time you sin you are not doing the will of God. If you believe that to be true than you are no better than the Muslim who believes in the doctrine of fatalism, one of their basic doctrines. But our God is greater than the impersonal God of Allah. He is not fatalistic. He makes his will known in the Word of God. He tells us that we are to pray according to His will, not according to our lusts. Therefore there are times when his will is not done. We know that according to Scripture. Don't be deceived.

--Good verse

excellent scripture. I don't argue with Scripture.

More good scriptures.

Ludicrous! You confuse God's foreknowledge and omniscience with the will of man to do sin. You blame man's sin on God. You create your picture of the Almighty into a cruel and vindictive god. Your God is not the God of the Bible; not my God. He is a monster.

I am the one showing you the truth by explaining the truth to you. You are so indoctrinated by Calvinistic words that you are blinded to the truth. Even the Scriptures you post you can't see the truth of them except through Calvinistic eyes.

It is foolish to add to the Word of God, and for no reason whatsoever to assume that Scripture applies only to the elect when the Scripture does not even imply that. The cults take Scripture out of context in that fashion. I would expect better from you.

Every time man sins God's will is not being done. That is what I said.
Your response is what the Muslims believe. It is fatalism. It is not from the Bible; it is from the Koran.

For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. (James 4:15)
--The trouble is most people don't know the will of God for their lives, and thus God's will is not accomplished.

Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. (James 4:2-3)
--They don't even ask according to the will of God.

Yes, all kinds of men, and in fact all men. The Scripture is clear in 1Tim.2:1,4. Twice it says that God is willing that all men should be saved. Why would you deny what God says his will is?

Too bad the verse doesn't say that. You have to twist and uproot the Scripture to make it say that.

Only certain brands of Calvinism that are purported on this board.

Only certain brands of Calvinism that are purported on this board.

I believe and teach the Bible: not Augustinianism, or Calvinism, nor any other man's system of theology. I don't need to follow after a man to study the Bible, thankfully. You have your heroes. You can follow after them. The Bible remains my final authority in all things. That is why I am a Baptist.

 

Sure it is. You don't understand the Calvinist position so you don't understand what I'm saying. You prefer to put up a caricature of Calvinism, not the actual picture--all the while presuming to tell us Calvinists what we believe.

No, I am not arguing salvation is dependent on doctrine. But, neither am I arguing that doctrine is irrelevant. For instance, any "church" or person that believes in a doctrine that denies the resurrection of Christ is not a true church or a true believer. In other words, a church spreading false doctrine--like a denial of the resurrection--will have people in it who, if they agree with that particular false doctrine, will not and cannot be saved until they believe in the Resurrection.

And, you are still missing the Calvinistic understanding of regeneration as it relates to salvation. Regeneration and salvation are not synonymous, regardless of what you might think--again you're reacting against the caricature of Calvinism, not actual Calvinism.

God will not save those who are believing in false doctrine--like a denial of the resurrection, or a denial of the full divinity of Christ.

Those whom God regenerates will ultimately (though not necessarily immediately) come to the proper understanding of doctrine.

Salvation is all of God, but man's response is not left out. True Calvinism affirms to things simultaneously: 1.) The absolute sovereignty of God in the salvation of man whereby He elects and regenerates those whom, for whatever reason, He sets His affection on and 2.) The absolute responsibility of man to respond to God in repentance and faith.

True Calvinism denies neither of these two things.

Therefore, to say that some of the believers to whom Peter was writing had fallen into error and were, therefore, in danger of being lost is absolutely in line with true Reformed theology--hence the phrase "Only those whom persevere until the end are truly saved."

God does not persevere for you. Rather He enables your perseverance, just as He enabled your response to Him in repentance and faith.

The Archangel

 

No matter how much you quote and bend to your own theological proclivities, no matter how loudly and incessantly you say it and repeat it, does not make it so Luke.

God's desire (will) is not murder. God's will is not abortion etc etc. etc.

How pitiful it is, your sense of theological smugness your consistent critical belittling of anyone who DARES to see God, His creation and mans relationship to Him in a different light than do you. Remind me, if ever in MS, I never wander in to worship where you lead. That is my choice.

 

Ahem. Who is the us or usward?

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The context makes the next verse clear as mud:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise [i.e. of his coming for his own], as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward [i.e. "beloved" who have obtained like precious faith and have pure minds], not willing that any [of us--the beloved] should perish, but that all [of us--the beloved] should come to repentance.

"not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" is a compound adverb clause that modifies "longsuffering to us-ward." It explains HOW He is longsuffering to "us-ward" and the "us-ward" is undeniably, indisputably, unequivocally the readership of the epistle, which are saved people, who have the promise of His coming.

2 Peter 3:9 when read in its proper context is a verse that strongly teaches all five points of the TULIP!

T: Without the longsuffering of God, none of His would come to needed repentance.
U: The beloved, heirs of the promise of His coming, are the ones whom God brings to repentance
L: God brings about repentance to His beloved. He is longsuffering in guaranteeing that they all will come to repentance.
I: He is not willing that any of His beloved perish, thus He brings them to repentance, and they all will.
P: All His beloved come to repentance.

Try again. Another case of a verse ripped out of context because of a preconceived notion:

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul is emphasizing that the Gospel is also for filthy, wicked sinners. In fact, Paul was once a Christian-hating authority figure who persecuted the church. This context is VERY important to understanding the next chapter.

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;[for whom? read on...]
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Paul is explaining to Timothy that he should pray even for his enemies who persecute him--Jewish and Gentile authorities! Why? Paul was once one of them, yet God graciously saved him. It is the will of God to save people from ALL classes: rich and poor, free and bond, king and slave, persecutor and persecuted. Whilst one at this time might have been tempted merely to pray impreccatory prayers for enemies, Paul encouraged Timothy to pray for the wicked authorities who might have a death sentence on his head. God's elect include even those who (afore) persecute His own church! Imagine that!

Also, what is a mediator? To what office in the Old Testament is this referencing? What is the job of a mediator? Does Jesus Christ as High Priest FAIL in His mediation?

 

I think you said that the first time. You are still begging the question.

It is not true. But that does not matter to you. You say it is, so it must be.

God hates sin, btw- I'll be glad to elaborate on this further if you wish.

What a thing for a Moderator to say. Do you really think you are qualified to be shutting down people's threads when you yourself say this kind of horrendous stuff about fellow members?

I DO believe that God's will is always done so...

No Calvinist believes in a fatalistic God.

He tells us what his nature demands of us knowing the whole time that we are not going to live up to those demands.

God is on his throne ruling completely and totally over EVERY single event and outcome.

2 Chr 20:6 and said, “O Lord, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand You.

Ps 103:19 The Lord has established His throne in the heavens, and His kingdom rules over all.

Don't be deceived.

Yea, shame you don't believe it.

That's great. Now if you just understood it.

Yes, yes they are.

No. If you don't understand this by now, we are wasting our time.

"You meant it for evil, God meant it for good."

You don't blame God for Joseph's brothers horrible actions but you recognize at the same time that God absolutely MEANT for everything they did to come to pass.

You ought to know this by now.

It is high time for you to leave this simplistic, elementary mess and move on to multiplication tables theologically.

The Bible is very plain on this, isn't it?

You will stand before my God, the God of the Bible one day. You better be careful.

It is a shame that you really believe that mess, don't you?

You are that blind, aren't you?

You are worse than me concerning inflammatory remarks- you know that, right?

You are not qualified to be a moderator because you are WAY too impetuous.

Seems like I heard that before...

Seems like I heard THAT before, too...

It is really against the rules, but I guess you are above them.

So say you. What a weak, impotent god you serve!

(Hey! If the moderator can do it...)

and?

I explained it to you. This is a waste of time. You are beyond help.

I believed just like you and used the same arguments you are employing when I was a teenager.

Hmmm... What was that book Calvin and Augustine devoted their lives to and put their lives on the line for? Hmmmmm...

OH YEAH! the bible.

You are absolutely right. Because no reputable man of theology would lead you to these conclusions of yours. Not Calvinistic, not Arminian, not Molinist, not any...

So you are right- you could not follow any decent man and come to this stuff.

Hmmm... What was that book Calvin and Augustine devoted their lives to and put their lives on the line for? Hmmmmm...

OH YEAH! the bible.

 

You're wasting your time talking to this guy about context.

Your effort is noble and appreciated though.

Keep in mind that your God and mine, according to this guy- "is a monster".

You may as well be debating Fred Phelps- you are not going to get anywhere with a guy who says this kind of wretched, inflammatory junk.

 

And you that continually pass judgement on me "doeth" the same thing. How fitting.

 

DHK just called my God a monster and said that I am no different than a Muslim and interpret Scripture just like the cults.

AND YOU REBUKE ME.

[edited]

 

I was talking to you, Luke, not anyone else. I was addressing you.
Thus, more accurately my remarks were along this line:

Your perception of God makes him out to be cruel and vindictive--a monster. You have a religion wherein it is your God's will that abortion, murder, adultery, and even the transgression of all of his Ten Commandments are His very will. If a man commit murder then that is the will of God. That is not Biblical doctrine. I will say this again. That is the belief of Islam. It is fatalism, one of their basic tenets. I am sorry that you believe that way. But it is not Biblical doctrine.

 

Rolling on the floor overcome with hysterical laughter on this one.

 

You do not understand my position at all and I am very articulate.

So it is due to willful blindness on your part or ignorance.

But none of that matters at this point.

You just said my God is a monster.

If you had an OUNCE of character- you would resign your position post haste or apologize.