A Civil Discussion about the Origin of Sin

Very good question! And in short---we don’t! Even if we allow Isa 12 & Ezek 14 (or even Rev 12) to be about Satan’s rebellion (which many modern theologians do not by the way)—all we know is that Satan sinned by Gen 3. This very well could have been where he fell as well.

 

Yes Luke, motive is the issue.
All who read this, before your emotions get the better of you, consider Job.

Job 23:1-6

Job Replies: Where Is God?
1 Then Job answered and said:
2 "Today also my complaint is bitter;
my hand is heavy on account of my groaning.
3 Oh, that I knew where I might find him,
that I might come even to his seat!
4 I would lay my case before him
and fill my mouth with arguments.
5 I would know what he would answer me
and understand what he would say to me.
6 Would he contend with me in the greatness of his power?
No; he would pay attention to me.

Job is wanting to know, why.

God replies to Job in chapters 38-41.
If you want the truth read these chapters carefully, as GOD unfolds the truth of HIS absolute sovereignty.

If you have not read the above chapters, then Job's reply makes no sense.
But if you have, you will understand Job's heart.

Job’s Confession and Repentance

1 Then Job answered the LORD and said:
2 "I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?'Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4 'Hear, and I will speak;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.'
5 I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
but now my eye sees you;
6 therefore I despise myself,
and repent in dust and ashes."
(Job 42:1-6 from ESV)

I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
This is the supreme hermeneutic for biblical interpretation.

Therefore, we must be content, that the "motive" of God is Sovereign and Pure.

 

In Genesis 3 he already reconized sin while he was tempting Eve. He must have fell before then.

 

You haven't read the passage clearly enough. God did not do it. He gave permission to Satan to afflict Job. Satan did it; not God. God only allowed it to happen. There is a big difference there. The permission was granted to Satan. You cannot attribute the evil back to God.

Your logic is flawed. The death of Christ was ordained before the foundation of the world. Many times did Christ tell his disciples that he would die and rise again. Time and time again it is prophesied in the Old Testament. That is not so with the rape and abortions that go on today. You do not take purpose into account in your reasoning. The death, burial and resurrection of Christ had eternal purpose--the forgiveness of sin to all who believe; the eternal damnation to all who reject Christ.

There is no purpose to those who commit acts of terrorism, murder, abortion, rape, etc. They are acts of the depravity of man's heart. No good comes from them. If you say that these acts were ordained from the foundation of the world on the same level as the death of Christ, what is the difference between your religion and that of Islam. There is no difference. Both are fatalistic.
Whatever God has willed, he has willed. Whatever happens is God's will. It is determined before hand. That is the fatalistic religion of Islam and it is exactly what you are expressing here. The Bible does not teach fatalism.

God's will was that Christ loved us enough to die for our sins.
God's will is not terrorism. It never was.

Herod was wrong in what he did, and shall be judged for it. Christ went to the cross willingly. The Bible says: "I lay my life down, no man takes it from me." He could have called 12 legions of angels, but he didn't. He went willingly.

God the Father did not force God the Son to the cross. Christ prayed in the garden: "Father take this cup from me; nevertheless let thy will be done." His human nature did not want to go through with this. But in spite of that he willingly laid down his life for us. That is love.

Without the love of the Savior there is no Lamb dying for you. He did it willingly out of love for you that you wouldn't have to pay the penalty of your own sins, a penalty that you could never pay. He loved you; that he died for you. You seem oblivious to the great love of God.

Again Christ went willingly to the cross out of love for humankind, all mankind, the world. It was his great love that drove him there. He was not forced by the decrees of God. He went willingly. He did not call 12 legions of angels as he very well could have.

The thought originated in eternity past in the secret council halls of the all wise, all perfect God.

But motive is the issue.[/QUOTE]
The motive was love.
The motive of a rapist is selfishness, hatred, evil, and so on. Their motives are the exact opposite of the motives of Christ and come from the wicked and depraved heart of man, not from the loving heart of God.

You have expressed the theology of a Muslim not the theology of the Christian God.

 

Can you prove this biblically or is this simply an assumption. How can it truly be shown biblically (without doubt) that this is not his first sin as well? In all honestly it cannot—while he certainly could have sinned before this—all we can say with certain biblical support is that Satan sins by Gen 3.

 

Yes, the motive of the sinner is wicked.
But the conclusion that God has no purpose for the tragedies that take place in this world is false. It is biblically falsifiable.

And just because you say that such deeds have no purpose; just because you say that God has no grand and glorious end for these temporary tragedies simply does not make it so.

I have heard of women who testify how God used their rape to do tremendous things in their life.

Corie Ten Boom testified how God accomplished awesome things in her life through the travesties of Nazism. And we know that the slaughter of those Jews by Stalin and Hitler served to bring them back to their homeland and fulfill one of the greatest prophecies in the Bible.

You are wrong that tragedies do not have purposes.

If God has a purpose for the worst of tragedies then it is only reasonable to believe that he has a purpose for every tragedy.

The Bible says so:

Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isa 45:5-7 I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides Me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides Me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Lam 3:37-38 Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?

The Bible is clear.

 

Show me that please?

I read the scriptures quite differently. Satan was in Eden BEFORE he sinned:

13 Thou wast in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, the topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was in thee; in the day that thou wast created they were prepared.
14 Thou wast the anointed cherub that covereth: and I set thee, so that thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till unrighteousness was found in thee. Ezek 28

Also, what do you do with this passage?:

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan fallen as lightning from heaven. Lu 10:18

 

:thumbs::thumbs:

 

I have heard all those testimonies also. Here is the difference.
God knew before hand that they would happen.
God permitted or allowed them to happen. He does not restrain evil. It is part of the curse, and the depravity of the human heart.

However, God does not ordain evil to happen.
That makes God the author of sin. It makes him the originator of sin.
This is wrong. It is taking Scripture out of context.

God told the nation of Israel that judgment would come. It was prophesied to them through the prophets. They warned them repeatedly. Then God allowed Syria in 722 B.C. to come and over come their forces and take them captive. He allowed the circumstances to be so that they would be taken captive. He didn't force anyone's hand. He did not force Assyria to take Israel. They were the natural enemy of Israel and had fought many wars already. He allowed their forces to be strengthened and Israel's to be weakened. Thus Israel was defeated. God did not force anyone. He did not create evil.

Read through the Book of Judges. You find the same pattern. God does not create evil. You interpret these verses wrong. If you attribute evil to God you have created a fatalistic religion that is no better than Islam. Whatever happens, happens. It is the will of God. Horrible!

 

Hank, good post, here's my two cents:

Actually, I believe Satan's motive was to cause Adam harm by causing him to stumble.

I heard a sermon that brought out a wonderful type (or simile) here. Adam willingly partook of the fruit so that he could be with his wife Eve, just as Christ partook of the cross so that He could have His Bride, the Church.

Also, “ye shall be as God”.

Yes, I think so. He wanted to have Eve.

Lucifer was in Eden before God created Adam. In short, Satan was first, then along came Adam. Adam was second. I am convinced that Satan's sin was pure ol' jealousy. Consider the element of jealousy in the other examples of first vs second given in the scriptures:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1642358#post1642358

I don't see why this story of firstborn/secondborn should be any different, IMO.

I don't know. Did you just get out of the shower? I enjoy your posts Hank. Wish you posted more.

 

Thanks Amy. You have precisely nailed the answer in a simple, efficient, and God-honoring manner.


Skandelon says that no Calvinist can (and implies "will") answer his question. Perhaps we are busy right now? I certainly am, and really do not have time to craft a decent answer. And if this is taken against me as an ad hominem, a pox on your house. Some of us actually work for a living, so be patient. There are answers.

Finally (for now), I advise the readers here to chew on this article for a bit until I can resume. There are two things happening in this (and the other thread that spawned this one) -- the problem of evil, and God's permissive will.

So far, I've not seen much depth on either point in either of the debates. We seem to get caught up in popular expressions and fail to realize that there are depths to plumb.

In any case, the article (pasted in full):

 

Actually, friend, I think it is you who has not read the passage clearly enough. Consider the following:

After the first "attack" on Job, in Job 1, the scripture says:

20 Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said, “Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked shall I return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”

22 In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong (emphasis mine)
​

Job's own lips say that God is the one who has taken away. So, who afflicted Job? God did. Did God do it through Satan? Yes. But, ultimately, God is the one who has "taken away."

And just so we know there is no blasphemy in this, the inspired author says "In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong." So for Job to accuse God as the one who has "taken away" is spot-on. If God was not the One behind it, certainly Job would have sinned by charging that He was.

After the second "attack" on Job, in Job 2, the scriptures says:

Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die.” 10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips. (emphasis mine)
​

Job is laying the blame for his lack of health on God. Again, did God do this through Satan? Sure. But who is behind Job's poor health? God is.

Job's words "Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil (or calamity)" are very instructive. It simply means that if we say that God has brought good into our lives--through circumstances, etc.--it must also be the case that the evil (or calamity) that comes into our lives is the result of God's work too, in an ultimate sense. Job (and the rest of scripture, I might add) has absolutely no place for the Star-Wars-like dualism of the light side and dark side--as if the good comes from the light and the bad comes from the dark. No, If any good comes to us, is it not God who has done it? If any evil befall us, is it not God who has done it?

"There is no purpose to terrorism, murder, abortion, rape, etc.?" Are you kidding?

Have you not read Genesis 50:20--As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Joseph is speaking to his brothers--the very brothers that "terrorized" him, plotted to kill him, and finally (at an older brother's intercession) sold him into slavery. Joseph identifies what they did as evil. But, obviously, there was a greater purpose behind the terrorism inflicted on Joseph by the brothers. God meant the evil actions of the brothers for good--for many people to be kept alive.

In the scope of biblical theology this raises many questions: Without Joseph being sold into slavery by his older brothers, how does Israel (as a nation) become slaves to Egypt? Egypt being slaves in Egypt is required by God's words to Abraham in Genesis 15 "Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years."

Through the evil actions of the brothers, God is super-intending those evil actions for good, for His good purposes, to fulfill His plan, and to magnify His glory.

So to say that evil things serve no purpose in God's world is to miss one of the major themes in all of scripture and to fail at having a truly biblical theology.

This is not the case. This is a Red Herring, a Strawman, or whatever on your part.

For you, as a Christian, to say these things are not determined before hand is, in effect, to say that God is making it all up as He goes--which is the textbook definition of Open Theism. Now, I don't think you are an open theist, but it is easy to see how you might get there from your current position.

The Archangel

 

Be careful here. I do not appeal to mystery in the same way you are or in the way that the LFW camp does.

The LFW camp sees many options on the table at one time. From a human perspective, I can understand that idea, but I think it horribly short-sighted in the sense of biblical theology.

The reformed position (which is taken from biblical theology) is that God is the Author and we are the actors. As the Author, God writes the script and brings it about to completion. We, as the actors, have the freedom to portray the role in any way we see fit. But, we are not free to act in a manner that is not in line with the Author's script.

As an example--do you know who was originally cast as Indiana Jones? Tom Selleck, not Harrison Ford. Now, had Tom Selleck actually starred as Indiana Jones, the movie and the story, etc. would have, essentially, been the same--in other words, Dr. Jones would not have gone looking for Noah's Ark. Had Selleck starred, though the storyline would have been the same, it would have been a very different move.

So the LFW camp appeals to mystery in much the same way that a child appeals to mystery as he or she observes the powered flight of a 747. The reformed camp, on the other hand, can explain the physics behind lift, thrust-to-weight ratio, etc., all the while acknowledging the "mystery" that is the "Law" of physics.

No. The phrase "He is sovereign enough and good enough..." is borderline heresy (although, you probably don't intend these words to say what they convey).

God is not "sovereign enough;" God is not "good enough." He is absolutely sovereign and He is absolutely good. To say sovereign enough or good enough is to imply that there is some deficiency in Him and He is struggling to be sovereign or good or, worse, that He is struggling to work good in any situation.

What is more, the verse that you are alluding to does not say what you are suggesting it says. You are suggesting that God is making things OK after the fact. The verse clearly means that God is causing things--before the fact--to work together for good.

God is not running around trying to "fix" things, as your statement suggests. This is why, in the Bible, God is depicted as "seated" on the throne. He is not running to and fro fixing things--like the wizard in The Wizard of Oz. Rather, He is seated--meaning He is causing and watching His plan unfold.

The Archangel

 

Another thought...

Apply the thinking that God does not "cause" abortion, murder, rape, etc. and apply that to cancer.

I have a good friend (a former professor of mine) who has lived his entire life to the glory of God. Four years ago, he was stricken with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.

Why did that happen? There was no "outside" cause like another person doing this to him. What do you say to him? That God didn't know? That God is not behind it?

The argument that God is not in ultimate control of rape, abortion, murder, etc. (as in ordaining these things, but not causing these things) falls apart when applied to a situation where someone has a disease that they did nothing to get.

The Archangel

 

But in this case, there was no one acting upon him (as in the example of someone murdering someone).

The only conclusion, then, is that my ailing professor friend (who has fought valiantly!) is afflicted in much the same way Job was--by God.

The question is "why?" Why did God do this to him? What purpose is served by this? etc.

The Archangel