Modern Baptist Heroes

I don't know that I agree with this statement. Billy Graham comes to mind....he has an amazing ability to present the gospel and for people to respond. No doubt God has worked through his popularity. </font>[/QUOTE]You have made my point.


There has been enough said about this compromiser. If he preached against infant baptism, the sacraments, etc. he wouldn't be nearly as popular. It isn't always what one says, but what one doesn't say that makes one a compromiser.

 

Canada is mostly unsaved contrary to your beliefs!
Less than 6% is born again as us Baptist believers.
As for the remark about Texas and states like Texas about capital punishment, read Romans 13!
God believes in capital punishment, look in
Acts Chapter 5 where it talks about Ananias and Sapphira, God struck them down Himself for lying to the Holy Spirit! Canada civilized? Supposedly they was to be the USA's best friend???
Canada is way to liberal, Why even there preachers can't preach all of the Gospel without getting in trouble with so called Gay hate speech!
I may not live in Texas any more, but God Bless her and the rest of the USA, land to the free, and home of the brave!

 

Modern Baptist Heroes: I think I will leave the hall of fame up to God to judge. What we see with our eyes and hear with our ears are not alway what is truth.

When we as men start upholding men I am afraid we start becoming as the Corinthians. These men become what we follow rather than God.

I wonder if this is not what the Corinthians did in I Corinthians 1:12, "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

Many good men have been named but they were what they were by the grace of God. Many set good examples to follow, but most would not want us to lift them up above what they were, men saved by grace and called of God to do a work for God, nothing more and nothing less.

I hope that when I am finished preaching and teaching the word of God, that those who heard me only think of my Savior and my God. I do not want the praises of men, all I want to hear when this life is over is, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant...enter into the joy of thy lord."

Richard

 

Because the Lord called us there, Jim! Actually, we were serving on staff of our home church, but we were seeking God's will, if He would have us go to another ministry. We were asking Him where He wanted us to go; we thought that we would go "home" to the Carolinas and my husband would pastor. But we didn't have any peace at all about that.

Our pastor read an article about that time about ten cities of the world that would grow rapidly during the 21st century, due to location, resources, etc. Vancouver, BC was one of those cities, and for some reason, that city seemed to jump out at our pastor. He prayed about it, then approached my husband with it and asked him to pray about it. We both spent almost a year praying about it. Long story short . . . we are on deputation, hoping to get there soon after the first of the year.

The only reason we can give is that the Lord made it clear to us through much prayer and searching that He wants us in Vancouver.

I hope you really do like to read messages about missionaries coming to Canada!

Susan

 

Jim,

I'm truly sorry for the misunderstanding here. We are not trying to condescend to you or the Canadian people. We simply want to start an IFB church and win souls to Christ. We're very aware that Canada is a modern country, with many churches, ministers, and seminaries.

However, there is also a famine of the Gospel in Canada! In the 2001 census, over 1/3 of British Columbia's population claims no religious affiliation, 35% to be exact. That's a 39% increase from 1991. That's not the only "religion" that increased: the Sikhs, Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims have also increased their ranks. The Muslims alone have increased by 125%. Yes, "Christianity" has also increased, but that includes any religion that claims Christ as its founder, whether it preaches true salvation or not. (All of this informatioin can be found at Statistics Canada )My main point is that, when more than 1/3 of the population claims no religious affiliation, then there is a need to give them the Gospel. My husband and I plan to do just that - spread the Gospel and try to see people saved. We're not going to demean Canadians or try to dig wells or build houses or any of the stereotypical "missionary" things. Simply to help spread the Gospel.

I truly am sorry that you were offended by our being missionaries. Would "church planter" be a better term? I would have hoped that any saved Canadians would be more than willing to have anyone come and help them win more Canadians to Christ - even Texans!

Susan

 

Amen and Amen!! As a Canadian I agree with these statements 100%!! This country makes me sick sometimes...

Jacob.

 

My Pastor, Charles Brown.

He works hard, serves with compassion, loves Christ and His Church, and handles difficult folks with grace.

 

Baptist Believer posted --- in reference to my comments on J.Frank Norris .....
__________________________________________________
Norris did a lot of good things, but he also did a lot of evil things.

It is very, very likely that he burned down the First Baptist Fort Worth church facilities ...etc.

It was clearly demonstrated that he lied in his depositions to the court that was investigating his role in the arson, ... etc. etc.

It is very, very likely that Norris murdered Dexter Chipps in his pastor’s study ... etc.

I spent quite a bit of time researching Norris’ life for some magazine articles I wrote about him as well as for a book I’ve been thinking about writing on Norris. ... etc.
__________________________________________________

Let me say a few things about your comments coming from one who:
has umpteen sermons by Norris (put on cassette); Articles; books; personally talked to many who knew Norris .... those who liked him and those who hated him....
And ... my uncle ...head usher at Temple Baptist, Detroit.... and my elderly mother-in-law -- maiden name "Norris" etc. etc.

Now... Your views on some of the happenings are very slanted. I will not waste the time to try and refute them, and it would not be hard to do.

You sound like one who has made it a personal vendetta to villify the man. Now... it depends on who you read and whay they wrote what they did about Norris.

I will say, that there was NO evidence of Norris burning down 1st Baptist, Ft. Worth... if so ... with all his detractors, he would have been convicted.

Lying in depositions???? Come now... that is farrrrr reaching. Again, he would have NEVER gotten away with it.

D.E Chipps&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; he did threaten Norris more than once... witnesses to that. I believe Norris was grieved as to this incident. The # of shots???? fired at Chipps... It doesn't jive with the copies of newspaper articles that I have from the Ft. Worth paper.

The courts ruled that Norris fired in self defence... Chipps threatened... reached into his coat pocket ... the place where he was KNOWN to have kept his revolver... Norris fired believing that Chipps was going to follow through with his threats..

Anyway... I find your views very slanted & sound as if they are from a SBC viewpoint.

We cannot forget the 75 million campaign and the radio hate fest against Norris.

Norris was a great preacher... soul winner... non compromiser...advisor to the president...builder... and he refused to play footsie with the SBC machinery.

Norris is the father of the modern day Independent Baptist Church movement and for that... we owe him a lot

 

PART ONE OF TWO

Well, I’ve interviewed former church members who knew him personally, read old issues of Norris’ newspapers, read old copies of newspapers from the time, read correspondence written in Norris’ own hand to various people, studied sworn statements from judges and Norris’ bodyguard, read transcripts from the trials, examined photos of the evidence against him, and read books by people who were very favorable toward Norris.

I am very familiar with the issues.

Oh? Is your mother-in-law related to Norris?

Actually, I believe it would be much harder than you think.

No. I find him fascinating.

I’ve studied materials from both Norris supporters (including Norris himself) and those who opposed him as well as the transcripts from the trials (which are not slanted).

Norris had a motive – the former pastor (J. Morgan Wells) was so highly regarded that the congregation created a stained glass portrait of Wells that stood over Norris when he preached. They also had Wells literally interned in a crypt immediately under the window. This near worship of Wells frustrated Norris to no end. Norris confessed to Lee Scarborough, the future president of Southwestern Seminary in Fort Worth, that he “would never be able to do anything with this church as long as that face looks down on me.”

Norris claimed he did not have a key to the building, but a key to the church building was found in his possession. He claimed he was not in town and produced a letter with a postmark from Ennis, Texas (about 60 miles away) allegedly mailed by Norris while visiting his sister on the same day when some threatening letters to Norris were mailed. At trial, the prosecution brought forth a man from Dallas who created an Ennis postmark stamp for Norris and another witness (a secretary of Norris’) who witnessed him practicing stamping pieces of paper with the stamp in his office. Furthermore, the financial secretary of First Baptist, Annie Taylor, testified that Norris asked her to mail a stack of letters at 11 a.m. the next day – without looking at them – when Norris was leaving to catch the train to Ennis.

Actually, one of the jurors had a medical emergency and needed to leave and Judge Swayne (allegedly a fervent supporter of Norris), called the jurors before the bench and asked the jury if they had reached a verdict – they had not. According to a document written by Judge Hosey of Tarrant County, Swayne “took the bull by the horns and made a short speech to the jury in which he declared that Norris was no guilty; the state had not proven him guilty; and for them to return a verdict of not guilty.” The jury deliberated more than an hour and then returned to the courtroom. J.R. Fuller, the jury foreman, rose and said, “We have come to the conclusion that Norris is guilty, but there is but one verdict that we can reach, under your Honor’s charge… that we should find the defendant not guilty.”

When he was tried for perjury, he was specifically charged with lying about the origin of threatening letters that he had received.

The evidence:

One of the threatening letters was written on a half sheet of hotel stationary. The other half of the piece of paper was later discovered in one of Norris’ charred overcoats in the remains of Norris’ burned-out parsonage. (The parsonage burned one night with the Norris family escaping injury, but Norris had been seen earlier in the garage with a can of kerosene by his bodyguard. Suddenly the bodyguard - who was staying inside the house – smelled smoke and emerged from his room to find a major fire in the closet under the stairs in the middle of the house.) The tear marks on the threatening note and the paper found in Norris’ coat pocket matched perfectly.

Norris provided a writing sample that a local expert matched to the threatening letters. (The expert also noted that the author of the threatening letters and Norris both misspelled the word “damn” as “damb”.)

(There was more evidence, but this thing is getting too long.)

Things were looking very grim for the defense until they discovered that the grand jury could not recall if Norris had been sworn in at the beginning of his second appearance before them. The defense asserted that Norris should not be found guilty of perjury since he was being tried for a statement made during the second session. The judge, Judge Simmons, instructed the jury to find Norris not guilty, regardless of the facts or circumstances, if they believed the grand jury had failed to place Norris under oath the second time. After a deliberation that lasted all morning, the jury found Norris not guilty.

PART TWO FOLLOWS

 

PART TWF TWO

Chipps was no friend of Norris’ to be sure. Norris was engaged in his anti-Catholic campaign at the time and was publicly lambasting Mayor Meacham (a man who had “known Roman Catholic associations” according to Norris). Things had turned very nasty (Norris loved to bait public figures) and Chipps likely went to Norris’ office to threaten him. However no gun was found on Chipps or in the room.

Yes, he seemed to be grieved.

That’s interesting. I’ve never heard of anyone disputing the number of shots fired. Chipps had three holes in him (one in the back of his neck and two in the back) and there was one bullet that went into the ceiling. It was reported in the transcript of the trial and in the newspaper accounts I read. I also seem to remember reading about it in several books on Norris by his supporters.

I won’t go into all the details of the trial, but the trial was moved to Austin because of biases for and against Norris in Fort Worth. Jurors selected for the trial in Austin suddenly started receiving Norris’ newspaper that strongly proclaimed Norris’ innocence with each issue. There was conflicting eyewitness testimony regarding the exact circumstances of the incident and the jury in Austin eventually returned a verdict of “not guilty”.

I don’t consider myself SBC and I’ve taken quite a bit of care to ensure that any personal biases I may have don’t interfere with my reporting of the facts.

Norris was no slouch in vilifying people whom he opposed. He was overtly hostile to all sorts of people. I spent about an hour one afternoon reading a stack of notes in Norris’ own hand that he wrote to local people chastising them for a variety of things. Norris liked to make public charges against people and then see if anything turned up to support the charges. (One of his most notorious sermons was titled, “Should a Prominent Fort Worth Bank Buy Expensive Silk Stockings for Another Man’s Wife?” Norris publicized the sermon on a banner outside the church building, in the local newspaper and in his own newspaper. (Norris was widely known to have a network of church members who reported all gossip directly to him.) On that Sunday, Norris stood up and said that he had decided not to reveal the name of the man for the sake of his family, but alleged that three bankers had come to him privately and begged him not to reveal their names.

He was talented in the pulpit.

His church was very strong on evangelism.

Actually, Norris often reversed his positions depending upon his whims. There are many examples of this.

Norris cultivated relationships with high-ranking politicians. Norris loved power and being close to those in power.

Norris was a great builder as well as a great destroyer.

Norris always had trouble with any person, group or relationship where he was not in charge. He was kicked out of the local association and the state convention over the years. He was physically ejected from the SBC annual meetings two years in a row for causing disruptions, including rushing the platform to declare the leadership of the convention were “Communists”.

And he caused great disturbances in the Independent Baptist movement before his death.

You are certainly welcome to your opinions, but please understand that I’ve done quite a bit of research on Norris. I have not made my comments lightly and I can back up everything with references if required.

 

I see you want to argue... that is sad.
Originally, it was posted to share our modern Baptist hero's etc.

J. Frank Norris was one of the greats of the 20th century. You may not like him and wish to dig up dirt... much of what you stated I have read....
Former church members.... Hmmmm... one can get what story they want by contacting foe's...

I shall not answer you again on this, but must state agaon, Norris was one of this centuries great preachers...

Earlier you asked.... was my mother - law - related to Norris?
Of course she is/was or I wouldn't have posted it.

 

Not really, I just wanted to point out that I’m not just making things up.

Certainly. I just wanted to point out that Norris had a very significant dark side that has tarnished everything he accomplished. Norris was a fascinating and complicated man.

There is quite a bit more, but I only posted a small amount of material from my research.

For what it is worth, the information I received from “former church members” had to do with Norris’ good work with the poor of Fort Worth and his preaching style. All of the former members whom I spoke with were very old (Norris himself died in 1952) and their minds were not very sharp anymore. I did not want to taint some of the more controversial issues with testimony I did not trust. The former members I spoke to gave me specifics about riding the bus to worship, Norris smashing Mason jars of moonshine in a tub while preaching against bootlegging, and the way First Baptist distributed food to needy people. I also spent quite a bit of time reading Norris’ own writings and the writings of his admirers. One of the most interesting books was “Pistol Packin’ Parson” by Homer Ritchie (the pastor who began pastoring First Baptist Church shortly after Norris’ death).

Indeed, he was an excellent orator.

I just wanted to make sure I understood you. That’s very interesting. I couldn’t find any of Norris’ family in the area when I was doing interviews. If I start the book project, I’d love to get her perspective on Norris.

 

I know very little about Norris, but I can tell you one thing for sure; he couldn't have been any worse than the heretics who got control of the SBC and the BGCT and injected the deadly venom of modernism and feminism deep into Southern Baptist life.

Mark Osgatharp

 

Somebody has to share the Gospel with the people of Canada since you Calvinists don't care about souls.

 

Wow!

I would never be accused of being a friend of Calvinism, but that's just unfair. It is not a necessary contradiction for Calvinists to be evangelistic.

 

Somebody has to share the Gospel with the people of Canada since you Calvinists don't care about souls. </font>[/QUOTE]I just took a break from working on the prospect file for visitation tonight and here's this message saying that I (a Calvinist) couldn't possibly be interested in evangelism. Guess I'll have to tell the group tonight that we've got to stop witnessing since we're Calvinists.

 

Why would you (a Calvinist) witness to someone? The person you are witnessing to might not be "one of the elect". If you believe that only the "chosen ones" can be saved, then wouldn't you be wasting your time talking to people who aren't "chosen" or "elect" or whatever nonsense terms you people use?

 

How would I ever know unless I did?
How would I ever face my Savior if I didn't do what He commanded me to do?

 

And Besides If I didn't witness to them - then they could get Saved when a church like yours visited them and I'd hate to have them confused about their theology for the rest of their lives on this earth.

 

Yeah because a church like mine would teach them what the Bible says, not some dead guy named Calvin.