Liberty in Christ

Well first of all, I don't believe it's a sin. I think it's a mistake, not a sin. Secondly, I don't impose it on anyone. I've never preached it from the pulpit and don't plan to. I have much bigger fish to fry. Thirdly, I measure no one by whether or not they go to movies.

Now, I did call it a "lower level of pleasure seeking." I don't see how in the world a family can interact and actually fellowship while watching a movie in a theater. At least at home on TV no one is going to shush you if you talk about it. In line with the OP talking about Christian liberty, your Christian liberty gives you the right to go to movies if you want. It becomes a sin if you are making that pleasure a goal. My impression of most people that defend movie going among Christians consider it a harmless pleasure. Respectfully, I don't know if that's what you do. But consider.

Christians should never be hedonists (and Piper's so-called "Christian hedonism" is offensive to me). Christian liberty does not give us the right to make pleasure a goal. Pure pleasure should never, ever be a goal for a Christian. "She that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." So, on what basis are you defending movie going? In what way does it glorify God?

 

It has nothing to do with pleasure. It has to do with place and public. What you do in your own home is your business and a place where you can have a lot of pleasure. But as an ambassador of Christ one must be careful what they do outside the home, and be careful of the places that they go.

The arguments given for not going to a theater are:
1. It supports the Hollywood industry (which certainly doesn't need it).
2. If a family event for children, often the promotions are advertised beforehand and who knows what they are--perhaps some X-rated clips, or some thing you don't want your children to see. You have no control over the remote in the theater.
3. Cost. I don't make a lot of money. The money that I can save on going to movies can be better spent by giving it to missions or some other similar cause.

I whole-heartedly agree. Family activities are great.

Agreed.

 

But later you say you agree with my statement that theater going is a "lower level of pleasure seeking." Which is it? Do people not go to the theater seeking pleasure?

1 & 2 are what I've always heard. And I agree to this day. But of course to be truly consistent on #1, then we must not buy videos. I'm afraid I fail here. So I can't really use #1 in this kind of discussion.

 

Yes they do, not that I would agree with it. I would agree with you at the same time that it is a lower level, rather than a "higher level" of pleasure which could be obtained at one's own time or church.

Unfortunately it cannot be totally avoided unless we hide in a closet somewhere. I have a TV. It also needs to be regulated.

 

I think the best way to answer this is to give my philosophy of leisure (the short version :smilewinkgrin: ).

1. The Bible is clear that all we do should be done to the glory of God, including such mundane things as eating and drinking (1 Cor. 10:31). This means that even our leisure time should have the goal of pleasing God. The question "What would Jesus do?" is a brilliant way to think this through.

2. God mandated a day of rest for the Jews. The sabbath is not for us. However, since God rested on the 7th day, I take a day of rest every Monday. What for? Well, rest, of course, just like Christ told His disciples to come apart for awhile (Mark 6:31). What is the purpose of the rest? So I can serve God with my full energy the other 6 days! Workaholism saps one's energy, so that they make errors while serving God. (Interestingly, when Jesus went to Tyre in Mark 7:24 and tried to hide, that area was a resort area--seaside, mountains, nice view, nice climate.)

3. Experiencing pleasure is not a sin. Otherwise God would not have made good things to eat (Prov. 24:13). However, making pleasure the goal of any activity, having pleasure as the motive, is wrong. That is hedonism, or Epicureanism. As I quoted before, the person who lives for pleasure (even a little) is already dead in a sense (1 Tim. 5:6).

4. Fellowship with my family or other Christians is a major goal of my leisure time. Getting to know each family member and each believer better is a God-pleasing goal. And of course it goes without saying that leisure time with a lost person is an opportunity for witnessing.

Thanks for the kind words. That's a blessing after some things I've read on the BB lately.

 

I must disagree with you. He established the Sabbath Day of rest from the foundation of the world for all mankind & incorporated it into the Law. There were no Jews on the seventh day of creation, only a man & his wife. The rejection of this principle is responsible for most of the stress & burn-out in our culture. It is a disagreement, but it is a minor one.

One other thought, do you believe the tithe applies to us as part of the Law as most pastors do? If so, how do you pull one law out of the Law & not abide by the entirety of the old Law?

 

Please go back and read what I wrote again. I believe a day of rest as shown by the Lord's resting on the seventh day is applicable to us. I don't believe the detailed Sabbath law of the Jews is applicable.

No. I believe the Christian in this age owes all to God, not a measly 10%.

 

Very true. This is one place where I am amazed sometimes at those who demand total soul liberty. How can I obey the Word while putting some of that stuff before my eyes? I remember one show we watched for awhile--until they started having a pro-homosexuality slant. The tube gets worse and worse, as does Hollywood.

 

This was perhaps a poor arguement to use. Let me turn this around the way my saved, but unchurched husband would:

"I don't see how in the world a family can interact and actually fellowship while sitting in a sanctuary listening to a preacher. At least if you watch at home, no one will shush you if you want to talk about it or disagree!"

Now I know, you'll say well church is of God and movies are not, but the dicotomy is there. We do all sorts of things that require us to be silent. Symphony Orchestra? Gotta be quiet. Ballet? Gotta be quiet. Library? Gotta be quiet. School? Gotta be quiet. Keep reading:

I know. The same way going out to eat, going out shopping, going to an amusement park (something MANY youth groups do) glorifies the Lord. We are always an example. I cannot tell you the number of times we as a family have been approached while out and told how nice it is to see a family out enjoying one another's company. This is how we glorify the Lord! In the world not of it, means more than holing up in our homes where the world can't see us.

Not only are we a "whole" family(meaning we've always been married to each other), but we have more than 1.6 kids! You should see the attention we get when we take our 4 plus whoever else is around and go out anywhere including the movies. People are amazed. How you possibly have fun with that many kids!!! (I used to take them all out shopping just so I could say how blessed I was ) People NEED to see Christians out "having fun" even if we have the dual purpose of representing God.

This is how we glorify God, by being Godly people.

Christ didn't live his entire life in seclusion. As you pointed out, he went to rest in a resort area. He attended weddings (and what weddings they had back then!!). He sat down to supper with prostitutes and tax collectors. Oh my!

If we have to constantly be second guessing our "goals" when we leave our homes to go see a movie/watch a ballgame/go roller skating/etc, instead of simply representing the Lord in our daily lives, we are going to be anxiety ridden. And Christ said His burden was light! Do you see the contradiction that I see?

 

Per Don: "Not disagreeing with you, per se. Liberty is freedom; but freedom has responsibilities."


Cannot disagree, for freedom carries responsibilities of understanding to reprove, compassion, and when appropriate (special occasion) not to cause one to stumble. We are accountable to God, and not man. However as you intimate, we are responsible for our actions.

We see a Christian Jew in Galatians (2:11) correct another Christian Jew. It did not make the corrected to stumble, but showed he need to Grow in Christ, and leave the Law behind. The earthly Apostles at that time had not yet received the wisdom that was given to Paul. Peter later tells the Jew in II Peter, chanter 3 that Paul is hard for the Jew to understand, but they had better try to. We heathen were never under the law, or beholden to the ordinances of the Jew.

I can only speak for myself, but when around a misinformed babe in Christ, I'll not flout my freedom. But at the same time I will not hide it in a public place. In my early years as a Christian I was very pious, judging every thing, and person in sight. No doubt I was saved, but was devoid of understanding who, and what I was/am. I finally realized I was really worshipping my church (denomination), and living preachers, and Evangelists. My library now consists of very few books; the most worn are my Bibles. Christ Jesus appointed me my very own Apostle to explain to me the Body of Christ.


The Baptist Pastor, as well as some other denominations, is put into a different role than I, a student of the Word, with no congregation. The Pastor would be more apt to have one stumble. They must be very careful in all things. They know drinking is not a sin, but the religion they have chosen to follow does not allow them to enjoy their liberty in Christ. For this they do suffer, refusing to be seen what they may desire to do, in great moderation.

Sorry for the length, and boredom (bewilderment) you may find here. It was on my heart to reveal my faith that can only come THROUGH THE FAITH OF MY LORD JESUS CHRIST.

 

I'm sorry, I'm having a real hard time equating a movie theater with church in any way shape or form!

Your motive for the theater is pleasure, for church is worshipping God.
You stay quiet in the theater, sing praises in church.
You pay to enter the theater, you give at church.
You learn Hollywood's world view at the theater, you learn about God at church.

I could write much more, but you get the picture.

Of course I agree with all of this. I just don't see that it applies to anything I've said. I certainly don't advocate holing up at home. We are in the world but not of the world.

I agree completely with this. But once again I don't think it applies to what I've said. We only had one child, but we fellowshipped and had fun everywhere we went. (Patty used to get embarassed at how Paul and I carried on.)

But Christ didn't go to the brothel to win prostitutes to Christ. And therein lies the crux of my argument. It is important where you go as you glorify God. I've witnessed to prostitutes and yakuza gangsters. But that was downtown on the street, not at their place of business. And I'd sit down and eat a meal with them. But not in the brothel or the illegal drug factory.

It's not a matter of second guessing goals, it's a matter of right motives. The Bible teaches much about motives. If the motives are wrong the deed is wrong. If I pray on the street corner to be admired, I'm sinning. If I give an offering to be praised, I'm sinning. Motives are all important in the Christian life.

And making sure motives are right does not produce anxiety ridden Christians, it produces Christians with peace in their hearts that they are following Christ, not their own selfishness.

 

I requoted a portion of what I posted earlier because I've already answered part of what you are asking. The main comparison is that we do a lot of things as a "family" that do not include "fellowshipping", since fellowshipping as a family was one your arguements against go to theaters.

At our church, the babies are sent to the nursery, the 4-5's to "King's Kids" and the older ones through 3rd or 6th grade are sent to Children's church. (CC waffles between accepting kids above 3rd grade) Unless you go against the grain of church culture like I alway have and keep your kids in service with you. So *I* might fellowship with my kids in church, but 95% of the rest of the folk are just glad for the break!

Where I live(and in the church I am in), you can't use lack of fellowship as cause to not go see movies.


However, a better discussion might be about this quote from your post #27:

I must say, I don't live for going to movies. That's not my point in life. I honestly can't understand people who leave one party (pleasuable experience) and go immediately looking for another, never to be satisfied. Poor Lindsay, since I used her as an example earlier, is an example of one who lives for pleasure, without understand that life is shallow and empty. I can't understand why she doesn't recognize the hole in her life.

But there is a difference between living for pleasure and experiencing pleasure in one's activities. And since I know you recognize this, why choose movie going to condemm over say enjoying going to the local baseball game?

What is it about seeing a movie at the theater that is inherently unwise?

 

I understand all of that. We've always had just a tiny Japanese church, so our fellowship at church as a family was always precious. We served God together, a wonderful opportunity--passing out tracts together, Paul being the usher, etc.

Here is what to me puts movies lower than say, going to a concert (where as you pointed out you must keep quiet just as in a movie theater), and not a family activity. Even most of the tamer movies show smoking and drinking (sometimes drunkenness) with no portrayal of health dangers, sensuousness, evolution uncritically taught, humanism, etc. None of these things will be seen at say, a concert.

What has happened is the old camel in the tent story. You let the nose in and eventually the whole camel is there, and you don't know how it happened. I was going through my files and found this quote from Time Magazine, 11/12/56: "Hollywood has learned long ago that The Bible mixed with sex is a good box-office attraction. 'The Ten Commandments' is perhaps the most vulgar movie ever made." But our Christian standards since then have ever so gradually changed until what secular Time called vulgar, we consider to be a "Christian classic," sold in the Christian bookstores!

Concerning family interaction not being allowed in the theater, even the G-rated cartoon movies such as Ice Age (and we have the DVD) portray evolution as a matter of course. If we watched that with our child I would be sure to discuss evolution and creation during and after. You can't do that in the theater, but you can do it at home if you watch a DVD.

So the values shown in a typical Hollywood movie are not only non-Christian, they are often anti-Christian. My wife and I chose to keep our son insulated from that. I don't think it would be a sin for my wife and I to go to the theater to see a relatively tame movie, since our son is now grown, but frankly we never got the habit and don't miss it!

 

Ice Age, lol. One of my favs to complain about! I wouldn't let my younger kids watch it, not because of evolution (which we teach about from very little on up) but because the bathroom humor. (which highly offends me even if the word f*rt doesn't!) We didn't go see it in theaters either, but not because it was played in one, but because we've (husband and I) always viewed beforehand any movie we took our kids too.

It's been a long time since I've seen the Ten Commandments, but I don't remember any vulgarity. Clue me in so I can watch for it, cause I'm sure it'll run again here in a few days.

Smoking and drikning are two other issues that we worry about (IMO) way to much as Christians. I don't know about how it was where you grew up, but it was certainly a shock when I moved to Alabama as a 10 yo and found that the church deacons had a smoke break between Sunday School and church! (and boy did my parents have some explaining to do about why they had taught me that smoking was one of those sins that kept one from heaven! )

Smoking is dealt with much easier by teaching the kids what the Bible really says about the subject(it doesn't call it a sin) and showing the effects (in our family real life effects since my father in law smoked until I had the first grandchild and we told him he could't smoke in our house any longer). None of my children have that desire. It's not forbidden, but its certainly discouraged.

Same goes with alcohol and drugs (my family's vice of choice). One look at my mother is enough to discourage them from putting even perscription drugs into their bodies, much less anything they find on the streets. If my mother being an addict wasn't enough, her oldest brother's story will chill you to the bones. (don't let anyone tell you that a 6 pack a day won't hurt you) Both stories are only slightly mitigated by the fact of a genetic trait toward mental illness (out of 14 kids only a couple haven't suffered from some form of mental illness or another).

You can't guard your children from family. (unless you are downright unChristian and refuse to associate, which was my father's solution all the while he ignored what was happening with my mother)

This is hard stuff, but Hollywood hasn't made these problems any harder to deal with. If anything, its helped keep the issues out in the open for discussion. My natural inclination from years of training, is to keep the addiction and mental illness secret. To do otherwise is to leave the family open for gossip and harm to its reputation. Boy was that pounded into me as a kid. I don't want to do that to my kids. That sort of thing left me powerless when my mother threatened my life one night when I was 14 (and not because we'd been arguing or anything of that nature).

I don't want my kids to experience that sort of thing. But for the grace of God go I and they. They need to understand the life that God allowed me to escape from and they also need to understand how not to get drawn into such a life.

 

Liberty in Christ is not, nor has it ever been, liberty to sin, to offend, or to wound the conscience of others.

Liberty in Christ has to do with freedom the ceremonial requirements of the law, and charity towards each other in things indifferent.

Don came close to a good summary. Here's my take on it:

1. The baby Christian has a list of forbidden things and one or two things that are permitted.
2. The maturing Christian has a biblical list of forbidden things and a comparable list of permitted things.
3. The mature Christian has a biblical list of forbidden things, a long list of permitted things, and an even longer list of things refrained from for the sake of the conscience of others and the testimony of Christ before the world.

 

Ah, but the question JD is who determines what is on the lists?

 

Scripture. If someone can show me a scripture, or a scriptural principle, then we can consider and discuss and see if we come to an agreement. If they can't show me scripture or a scriptural principle, then someone's created a man-made rule.

As you pointed out in an earlier response, use Galatians 5 and the fruits of the spirit; and test your own motivations for those fruits (i.e., am I being truthful because of some thought that I'll be rewarded for it in some way, or simply because it's the right thing to do?). Look at the other portions of scripture mentioned (Eph 4 and 5, for example) and test your own motivations again (am I striving for unity because I expect to be rewarded for doing so, or because it's the right thing to do? And/or simply because I'm obeying scripture?).

The nit-noys we get wrapped around (smoking, movie theaters, etc.) are the things that we need to discuss whether there are scriptural principles that apply or not...whether there's a biblical principle that can actually be applied to them. For example, going to the theater in and of and by itself can be classified as harmless. If the theater is showing a movie which is identified as a comedy (and elicits laughter and "fun") about teen-agers attempting to have pre-marital sex, then what does scripture have to say about pre-marital sex? From there, what does scripture say about identifying pre-marital sex or attempting to have pre-marital sex as fun and deserving of laughter? From there, what does scripture say about those that support pre-marital sex (i.e., showing the film and accepting money to show the film that )? And so on.

--- Edited to add ---
As a further example, I myself am not persuaded that drinking is sinful. However, I read in Romans 14 that Paul says he won't eat or drink or anything else that causes another to stumble or be weakened; so I choose not to drink.

 

Good for you! Sounds like you are very discerning in what you let your kids watch.

Sorry, haven't seen it in decades. :saint: I just thought the quote was an excellent way to show how the typical Christian's way of interacting with popular culture has changed for the worse. And from Time Magazine, no less!

Our family was very strict about smoking and drinking. I remember one of us kids used to have to stand in front of the TV when they had those Hamms Bear beer commercials on. I didn't learn why until just a few years ago. Dad's father and two older brothers were both alcoholics. Grandpa and one uncle died of liver disease. All three were violent towards Dad while he was growing up.

So I hate drinking in particular, though I think smoking is very foolish. (Only tried it once--when I was about 7, and really regretted it after my folks found out! :smilewinkgrin I think alcohol destroys lives and families, and we must be very careful about it with our kids.

Thanks for sharing this. In the end, it is all the grace of God. I do believe in raising children with equal parts of love and strict protection from the snares of the Lord.

And I believe in high standards of behavior. But those standards and/or rules are useless without equal parts of love and without teaching the child to think through their own standards. I think this is where many of my fellow independent Baptists go wrong. They forget to teach the child to think things through. We always had our son give his own reasons for standards, not just parrot ours.