Lamb's book of life

Reply to SavedbyMercy

The difference sir, is I demonstrated why I think you are in error from basic Greek grammar. And since you probably now know the tenses are from the author's point of view, there is little to commend your thinking.

 

Ephesians 1:4 refers to the corporate election of those redeemed by Christ before the foundation of the world. But our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, because our election was on the basis of God crediting our faith in the truth.

 

Reply to SavedbyMercy

We were discussing Revelation 13:8 and I provided evidence from Greek Grammar that demonstrated my view was grammatically correct, i.e. did not violate the syntax.

Now, you switch and say my error has to do with my view of corporate election and Ephesians 1:4. But since you want me to address your post to someone else, fine. Here goes!

First lets define “corporate” election as God making a choice to deal with a group of people according to His purpose. Thus, whoever is “in the sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry. The means of entry must be an additional stipulation, and “corporate election” by itself does not specifically address how a person “enters” or becomes a member of the corporately elected group.

Secondly, it is a false dichotomy to say if God does sometimes choose to deal with a group for some purpose, that means He does not ever choose individuals for some related purpose. Corporate election does not require the denial of individual election, and individual election does not require the denial of corporate election.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but a corporate election does not suggest that the group in view exists as individuals, the corporate election could address a "target group" that will become a group of individuals when they individually enter or become a member of the corporately elected target group.

Point 1, you are in error when you say a corporate election is comprised of individuals grouped together.

Ephesians 5:23 addresses the individuals that have entered, become members of the corporately elected group, thus Jesus is the Savior of the body, the church, made up of all those who have been spiritually placed into the body of Christ. Thus the body of Christ is composed of individual members, once the member has been placed in the body!

But Ephesians 1:4 does not address "us" individually as if we existed before creation, because obviously we did not exist before creation, so it addresses "us" as those who have been placed into the corporately elected target group. Thus God chose us [corporately] in Him before the foundation of the world. And when we are spiritually placed into the church, the body of Christ, we become part of that target group chosen corporately before the foundation of the world.

 

Reply to Siberian

1) You did not answer my question. All this "time marker" stuff is fiction. It is a mistranslation. That is why the other translations translate it as from or since. Why did John not say "before" using "apo" in Revelation 17:8. Why did John us "pro" in John 17:24? No answer will be forthcoming.

2) The time marker of Revelation 13:8 is provided in the text. The time is the end time, not the beginning of time. As for your statement about "no serious student" we have the translators of the NIV, NASB, HCSB, YLT, KJV, NKJV, NET, all agreeing with my view, and you say none of these scholars are serious students. ROFLOL

 

Folks note the generlized disparagement, devoid of content. Anytime a poster starts questioning my character and qualifications, the discussion is over.

The ESV translation of Revelation 13:8 is a blunder, a mistranslation. The consistent wording of the proper translations clearly indicates that those whose names were not written in the Lamb's book of life from or sincecreation are tossed into the Lake of Fire. Therefore during the same time frame, from creation to the end of the age, we can reasonably assume other names were written in the Lamb's book of life and these are those whose faith in Christ has been credited as righteousness.

 

Right, saying I do not have a clue does not question my qualifications, and saying I should repent does not question my character.

Folks, note the effort to shift the subject away from the topic and into petty personality dispute.

The premise of the thread is that we can assume the names of those saved were entered in the Lamb's book of life from or since the foundation of the world.

This was challenged by citing the ESV mistranslation and ignoring the other mainstream translations, saying all those scholars were not "serious bible students."

So the summary after at least three pages of posts remains stated in the OP, we are individually elected for salvation during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith in the truth as righteousness. Ephesians 1:4 addresses Christ being chosen as God's Redeemer, and therefore everyone subsequently redeemed was chosen corporately when He was chosen before the foundation of the world, thus "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world...."

 

Why does the election of Ephesians 1:4 have to be corporate and not our individual election for salvation?

1. Requires the idea of God creating individuals before He created them.

2. Individuals who are elect can have no charge brought against them, Romans 8:33. Paul says all those saved were children of wrath by nature, and so only a corporate election gets around this difficulty. We were conceived in iniquity, made sinners as a consequence of Adam's sin, etc etc. Thus charges can be brought against the so-called elect individuals of Calvinism, which is a non-runner. I think Ephesians 1:13 refers to our individual election during our lifetime when God puts us in Christ. This is therefore consistent with 2 Thessalonians 2:13 with sanctification by the Spirit referring to the Spirit placing (baptizing) us into the body of Christ.

3. James 2:5 says God chose the poor to this world, putting individual election as occurring during a person's lifetime. Those chosen were "rich in faith" again putting the election during a person's lifetime after they trusted in God and His Christ. And those chosen were heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God, so yet again, those chosen were chosen during their lifetime after they became heirs though their love of God.

4. To cut this short, see also 2 Thessalonians 2:13 where folks were chosen for salvation through ... faith in the truth. 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 where folks were chosen during their lifetime. 1 Peter 2:9-10 were folks were chosen after they lived without mercy.

5. The use of the phrase "in Him" appears to convey the idea that Christ was chosen as redeemer individually, and therefore everyone subsequently redeemed was chosen corporately when Christ was chosen. Thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.

6. Using this view of corporate election of "the body of Christ" or "the church" before creation, followed by God putting us in Christ, i.e into the corporately elected body, individually during our lifetime, all of scripture fits together without conflict.

 

The ESV mistranslation provides cover for Calvinism to make arcane arguments and thus shift the subject away from when scripture says names are probably written in the Lamb's book of life.

No need to understand Greek when a lexicon written in English gives you the idea of "apo" which is out of something, hence from or since. Folks arguments that address the man, rather than the view are logical fallacies. And that is what Calvinism is all about, logical fallacies.

And note, Revelation 17:8 and John 17:24 clearly show John knew how to write either "from the foundation of the world, or before the foundation of the world, so to rewrite the text and turn from into before is without merit.

 

Lets see, the NIV determined what the Greek phrase meant, but that is rubbish. The NASB determined what the Greek phrase meant, but that is rubbish. Ditto for KJV, NKJV, HCSB, YLT, and a host of others, all rubbish, but the ESV, why that got it right.

Note the effort to discredit all modern translations, except the ESV, and yet never respond to the fact the ESV translates the same phrase, from the foundation of the world at Revelation 17:8. We are asked to accept this lone poster and ignore people like Dr. D. Wallace.

Calvinism is based on defending its false doctrines with logical fallacies such as descrediting anyone who holds a differing view. Rubbish indeed.