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They do not deserve a *State*

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by LadyEagle, Jun 7, 2005.

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  1. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Dispensationalism is an extremely dangerous, false teaching. It is so sad to see otherwise good Christian folk falling for it and believing that while millions die they will be whisked away and avoid it all.

    Dispensationalists can deny it all they want but the bottom line of their deluded eschatology is that for it to be accurate they must be anxious for a materialistic kingdom just like some of the first century Jews were anxious for. These first century Jews turned out to be wrong to expect a materialistic kingdom and dispensationalists will turn out to be wrong, also.
     
    #21 KenH, Jun 11, 2005
  2. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    It has nothing to do with my eschatology. It's just a simple fact that you can't make "deals" with terrorists. The Palestinian people (Muslims) have an ideology in which they seek to drive Israel into the sea. This is evidenced by their own intifada history, bombings, homicide attacks, and their own media AND what is preached in their mosques. Not only in Palestine, but throughout the Arab world, including America!

    Palestinians have been furnished with handouts from the United States/UN for years and have done NOTHING to rise above their corrupt leadership and make something of themselves. Not even Arab countries want them! But with their persistence of terror and murder, they have succeeded in bending and breaking the will of the leader of Israel, after arm twisting by our own President, to go along with the plan (Road Map) or have US funds cut off from Israel. They have won. If you think the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and turning over Bethlethem and even Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine is going to be appease them and there will be peace, you've got to be kidding. How can there be peace when the goal is to drive all Jews into the sea and destroy the little satan and big satan?

    Contrast the lazy and violent Palestinian people with the Israeli Jews who, after having become a Nation in 1948, created a virtual rose blooming in the desert from a land of dust and stones and ruin. They have met with adversity from all over the world, been driven from Arab lands, having their wealth stolen and confiscated by the same, and have been ridiculed and hated throughout history. Yet, there they are - still. With much more resilience and endurance and tolerance than the average American citizen would have, living under the same circumstances and threats. And, yes, I do believe the "jihad" will be coming to America one day and it is a matter of time and has nothing to do with eschatology.

    And, regardless of eschatology, pre-mil, post-mil, pre-trib, post-trib, whatever - the fact is, God says the Land there Belongs to ISRAEL. Abrahamic Covenant. Period. Now you can choose to ignore that or pass that off as not applicable to today or the future and blah, blah, but that is what I believe from the Bible. Now we can slide back into eschatology on that point, I suppose. And you can persist in making inuendoes about me and what I believe, but in the end, what you believe about me doesn't really matter, does it? And it doesn't change a thing when it comes to Biblical prophecy or what God says. If I am wrong in accepting what God said about the Nation of Israel and whether or not that Nation is in existence today, then I am wrong. If I am wrong in believe that Ezekiel 38 and 39 will come to pass, then I am wrong, and my beliefs have nothing to do with the future outcome of anything. I didn't invent eschatology.

    But I believe once God says something, it is everlasting - especially when He goes to great lengths to explain that it is an everlasting covenant. Like the Abrahamic Covenant. Who am I, dust that I am, to question whether God meant everlasting when He said it or not? I take what He said at face value.

    Additionally, I do believe the Scriptures when it says that one day ALL of Israel shall be saved. I also take that at face value. Period.
     
    #22 LadyEagle, Jun 11, 2005
  3. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Actually, not all dispies believe they will be whisked away. Some believe we will have to undergo the beheadings as mentioned in Revelation, just to clarify a point.

    PS: Since when did you ever believe me to be a "good" Christian folk? [​IMG]
     
    #23 LadyEagle, Jun 11, 2005
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Not all Palestinians are terrorists, or even Muslims for that matter.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #24 Joseph_Botwinick, Jun 11, 2005
  5. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I totally disagree. The same generation of Jews who accomplished that are in the same generation of Americans who bore great sacrifices and deprivations to defeat two great powers - Nazi Germany and Japan - in World War II; who defeated the Soviet Union in the Cold War; and whose heirs will defeat the Jihadists regardless of the fact that there are some "whiners not winners" among us.
     
    #25 KenH, Jun 11, 2005
  6. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    To Joseph:
    I know that. Read my post. But the Muslims are in the majority.

    To Ken:

    I disagree. The Greatest Generation has pretty much died off. The ideals and morality of that generation have pretty much died off in America. What we did to achieve victory in WW2 cannot be obtained today because of the ACLU and political correctness, turning our backs on God as a Nation, and the relentless murder of the unborn. It is not the same USA as it was in WW2.
     
    #26 LadyEagle, Jun 11, 2005
  7. TexasSky

    TexasSky Guest

    The way people try to leap on a few words of posters, or twist the intentions of posters on this board breaks my heart.

    I keep wondering if some posters realize that the words to lift up and encourage your brothers applies to them too.

    For the snippy remarks to Lady Eagle that wanting Christ to come equates to wanting the destruction of Israel - consider the other point of view - NOT wanting Christ to come BECAUSE it might mean the end of Israel is putting Israel above Christ.
     
    #27 TexasSky, Jun 11, 2005
  8. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Eschatology should not be an issue of fellowship, and it certainly is not a salvation issue. [​IMG]
     
    #28 KenH, Jun 11, 2005
  9. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Nope. It is not. Christ comes first. But, I don't believe in the Pre-mill position for theological reasons.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #29 Joseph_Botwinick, Jun 11, 2005
  10. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    The second coming of Christ Jesus is unrelated to the modern state of Israel.
     
    #30 KenH, Jun 11, 2005
  11. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Interesting how defamation of an entire group of people on the earth (Arabs and Muslims) doesn't seem to bother you.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #31 Joseph_Botwinick, Jun 11, 2005
  12. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    1) No, God does not say such a thing applies to the year 2005.

    2) So do I. However, we disagree over the definition of "all of Israel" in the context of that passage of Scripture.
     
    #32 KenH, Jun 11, 2005
  13. TexasSky

    TexasSky Guest

    Joseph,

    Praying for the return of Christ is "defamation of an entire group of people"? Fascinating theology.
     
    #33 TexasSky, Jun 11, 2005
  14. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Texas,

    Implying that all Muslims / Palestinians are terrorists is defamation. Why don't you take some time and actually read the whole thread? It might help you to speak more intelligently about the issues.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #34 Joseph_Botwinick, Jun 11, 2005
  15. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    TexasSky,

    Joseph and LadyEagle have been battling over LadyEagle's broad brush characterization of Muslims for months and months. If you read the threads from when this started it is pretty clear that Joseph has the high ground in their debate.

    But LadyEagle is tenacious. [​IMG]
     
    #35 KenH, Jun 11, 2005
  16. TexasSky

    TexasSky Guest

    Joseph,

    I did read the whole thread. I objected to the statement made to Lady Eagle that said by praying for the return of Christ she was praying for the destruction of Israel.

    However - if you want the truth - I'm older than you, and for my entire life that section of the world has spit in the face of peace and waged war. Nation, after nation, after nation have attempted to help them negotiate peace and they just turn on those nations to wage war.

    I look in my history books and see that they've been doing this since just about the dawn of time.

    Children grow up being taught hate. The innocent are blown up by the guilty, and the next day the other side uses that to justify blowing up innocents on the other side.

    For it to be real defamation - it would have to be wrong wouldn't it?
     
    #36 TexasSky, Jun 11, 2005
  17. TexasSky

    TexasSky Guest

    Ken,

    I certainly am not in favor of "Bashing Muslims," but ~ no one who criticizes praying for the return of Christ has the high ground.
     
    #37 TexasSky, Jun 11, 2005
  18. hillclimber

    hillclimber New Member

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    I would be delighted, because I'd be in heaven with my Lord, and if I was a betting man, I'd bet against it lasting. But that peace would be brokered by the anti-Christ.
     
    #38 hillclimber, Jun 11, 2005
  19. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    There is no "great escape" as dispensationalists teach, hillclimber.
     
    #39 KenH, Jun 11, 2005
  20. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    TS,

    1. You being older than me has no real meaning to me. Now, answer this question: Do you believe that every Palestinian is a terrorist? LE does. As a matter of fact, about a year ago (I have an excellent memory), she started a thread entitled "All Muslims are terrorists or potential terrorists". I continue to refute this defamation as I believe it is born out of ignorance and fear and not reality. I believe the thread is still in the archives. I am looking for it.

    2. There are now two nations in the Middle East who have embraced democracy and the USA. They are called Afganistan and Iraq. If you will also look at history, many isolationists made much the same arguments that you are making right now about Germany, Japan, and the Soviet Union. They misinterpreted what they saw in the dictator controlled media as a blanket endorsement of the majority who lived there. They were wrong also. If you are interested in learning more about this, I would reccomend a great book for you to read called: "The Case for Democracy: The Power of Freedom to Overcome Tyranny and Terror" by Former Soviet Dissident and political prisoner, Natan Sharansky. I think it will open your eyes to many reasons for hope that is not commonly highlighted.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #40 Joseph_Botwinick, Jun 11, 2005
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