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Can we discuss Kenosis?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Goinheix, Aug 3, 2011.

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  1. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
    #81 jbh28, Aug 4, 2011
  2. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Besides the list of divine qualities and versus I just listed I'll add the Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the SBC:

    I can't get through the first sentence before I find a divine attribute. How many non-divine people are eternally existent? And go on to the second sentence: How many non-divine people you know who were born of a virgin? Need I go on?
     
    #82 Skandelon, Aug 4, 2011
  3. Goinheix

    Goinheix New Member

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    Lets try again.

    God is God because he is God. Divine atributes dont make God to be God. There is not any difficulty on God the Son emtying himself of all divine atributes and remain being God. Jesus is God in the only way he can be God, fully, totally, absolutely, ilimitely... But he did not have any one of the divine atributes. That is ok because God to be God dont depent on having or not having divine atributes.

    What i mean by divine atributes?
    Omnisciuense -Jesus was fully God and yet not omniscient.
    Omnipotent - Jesus was fully God and yet not omnipotent.

    You can prepare a list of God atributes; and you will found out that Jesus did not have any of them.

    IMPORTANT QUESTION:
    Can i offer an analogy? I am afread that my analogy will be taken as an excuse to make moke of what i learn in the Bible. It is possible that my teaching be ridiculized saying that it is something proper of a comic book. Because my analogy is with comic books.

    Can i offer an analogy on comics characters? it will be for clarifying, not for proving.
     
    #83 Goinheix, Aug 4, 2011
  4. Goinheix

    Goinheix New Member

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    Knowing the thoughts is not a divine atribute. You can not found that in any list of divine atributes. But not knowing - for example - where was placed Lazarus is a clear sign of not having the divine atribute of omniscience.

    Jesus didnt knew all things; he knew that all things have been acomplished.

    Being lord is not a divine atribute. You can not found it in any list of the divine atributes. Isnt satan lord of this world?
     
    #84 Goinheix, Aug 4, 2011
  5. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant Well-Known Member

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    You really must be a lawyer, because you are certainly not an orthodox theologian.
     
    #85 Tom Bryant, Aug 4, 2011
  6. Goinheix

    Goinheix New Member

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    Please dont make statement as i have lack of understanding. that atitude can be reported.

    Yes God (Father) have all the divine atributes. He (God) is not a colection of divine atributes; he is God and have - besides being God - all divine atributes. Having all divine atributes, God the Son did emtied out of all of them. And despite being demptied of all divine atributes God the Son continues to be God, because being God is not about God have or not have. God is God despite and besides what he have or not have.
     
    #86 Goinheix, Aug 4, 2011
  7. Goinheix

    Goinheix New Member

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    Thanks for your participayion. It is quite boring keep saying that Jesus is God etc. etc. You are adding new things to be analiced. Thank.

    When I say that Jesus have not divine atributes I refer to God the Son who emptied of all divine atributes and entered the world as Jesus. It is quite clear that God the Son had all divine atributes before he emtied out, and that he have it back after ascencion. Proving that God the Son have this or that divine atribute is not in question. The question refers solely to the period of Jesus being in Earth. The most of the verses you quote refers to God the Son, but not in the period when he was emptied of all divine atributes being only Jesus.

    I will apreciate if you make yourself a filter on your contribution and select those verses refering explicity to Jesus.

    Thank
     
    #87 Goinheix, Aug 4, 2011
  8. Goinheix

    Goinheix New Member

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    In the case of the woman that touches him, Jesus not only did ask who it was, but he was looking aroud trying to figure out. But offcourse you will say that it was a kind of acting or so.

    What about the drink that one soldier brought to Jesus. Jesus had to tate it in order to know what it was. How do you explain that?
     
    #88 Goinheix, Aug 4, 2011
  9. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Are you then attempting to argue that Jesus had access or COULD have utilized his divine attributes, but chose not to do so while being in human form?

    For example, he could have called down the angels, but chose not to? He could have know the time and hour of his return, but chose not to? He could have known who touch his garment, but chose not to? etc etc

    Or are you saying He simply didn't have these abilities any longer as a man?
     
    #89 Skandelon, Aug 4, 2011
  10. Goinheix

    Goinheix New Member

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    I will not leave the thread to discuss precognition of God or predestination. Did God knew of failure of Satan, of failing of Eve and Adam? That is not my intention to discuss. We can say that God - with thouse words - was aproving Abraham. I dont care now.

    But the case of Jesus is not him asking question like where is Lazarus body, or who you say i am. Probably those questions can be made by an omniscient Jesus. I agree. But Jesus - for example - did not know what it was give to drink at the cross. That is absolutely clear.
     
    #90 Goinheix, Aug 4, 2011
  11. Goinheix

    Goinheix New Member

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    Paul say that he emptied (totally) his divine atributes. Where do you read that Jesus was limiting them????????
     
    #91 Goinheix, Aug 4, 2011
  12. Goinheix

    Goinheix New Member

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    I say - the Bible say - that he choose not to have these abilities while being man. While being man - that is being Jesus - he had not these abilities at hand.

    I see you post an analogy..can i... will it be concider just an analogy for helping to explain and nothing more?
     
    #92 Goinheix, Aug 4, 2011
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It does not say he emptied himself. You say that.

    But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (Philippians 2:7)

    It says he made himself of no reputation. He took the form of a servant. He was made in the likeness of men. He did not empty himself of anything. Other translations are deficient in this. This gives a better sense of what happened when Christ came to earth.

    As God he came like man--in the form of a servant.
    As God he made himself of no reputation. He grew up the son of a carpenter, having no reputation in the community, choosing not to exercise his divine attributes. He did not empty himself of anything. He chose not to use the divine attributes that he did have.
    He was made in the likeness of men. He was God, having all the attributes of God, but made in the likeness of man.

    Your premise is faulty. You repeat it over and over again like a mantra. You build upon it a false doctrine. But you have built upon a false premise. It does not say that he emptied himself of anything.
     
    #93 DHK, Aug 4, 2011
  14. Goinheix

    Goinheix New Member

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    Please quote any orthodox theologian (I mean a recognized man as Luther, Calvin, Wesley, ...) stating that Jesus had all divine atributes.
     
    #94 Goinheix, Aug 4, 2011
  15. Goinheix

    Goinheix New Member

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    I can see that I was saying, the supposed divine atributes of Jesus are not part of any Baptist statement of faith.

    The first sentence is refering Christ, God the Son, not to Jesus.
    Being born of a virgin is not a divine atribute. If it were, then the Father and the Holy Spirit were not God since they are not born of a virgin.
    Is Jesus God? Yes that is my teaching. Is him fully God? Yes there is not other way to be God. That is my teaching.

    I am missing something because that statement say litle about Jesus and nothing about his suposed divine atributes.

    My teaching is not contrary to any Baptist or Christian statement of faith or creed.
     
    #95 Goinheix, Aug 4, 2011
  16. Goinheix

    Goinheix New Member

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    You are quoting KJV a bad translation of the greek text. In original greek say kenosis wich is emtying. Everybody agree that Philipiand must be translated as emtied.
     
    #96 Goinheix, Aug 4, 2011
  17. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    CAn you quote any stating, as you have, that he has none?
     
    #97 Skandelon, Aug 4, 2011
  18. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    This is akin to Kenneth Copeland's false teaching.
     
    #98 Mexdeaf, Aug 4, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2011
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    God is God. Jesus Christ is God. If Jesus Christ does not have all the divine attributes of God, then Jesus Christ is not God, and you have denied that Jesus Christ is God. He never emptied himself of anything.
     
    #99 DHK, Aug 4, 2011
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    That is your opinion. I believe you are wrong. Everybody does not agree. I am not everybody. :)
     
    #100 DHK, Aug 4, 2011
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