Disrespect to baby Jesus?

I used to teach young children Sunday school. There never was a problem and I never used pictures.

There are exceptions to almost everything. Since I'm not familiar with the Deaf community, I can't have an opinion on whether an exception should be made. Well, I can, but it would be based on ignorance and no opinion given in ignorance would have any merit.

Amy, you asked about crosses worn as jewelry. I have no problem with them, provided they do not bear an image of Christ, as seems popular among many Catholics and I occasionally see a Baptist wearing that...a cross with an image of Christ still nailed to it. Christ is Christ. A cross is wood. There's nothing sacred about wood. There's really nothing sacred apart from the Trinity, so that's the only thing there seems to be an issue with as far as attempts at making likenesses of. (yeah, I end sentences with prepositions. Fear me! haha )

 

That statement raises as many questions as it answers, so let me suggest some things you might have said without my saying a word about it:

Possibility No. 1: "I used to be Catholic but then I was saved so I gathered up all my crucifixes and destroyed them without remorse."

Possibility No. 2: "I was pastoring a church in Latin America which was made up of former Catholics. One day they all brought their old crucifixes to church and left them in a basket. I took the basket and burned it without remorse."

Possibility No. 3: "I was visiting in the home of a member who was a former Catholic. The member gave me his crucifixes and said, "I don't need these any more. I destroyed them without remorse."

I don't know if any of these are close at all, but they would have been the act of a good Baptist pastor. What you said, however, and the discussion where you interjected it made it sound like you were officiously damaging the property of another and that you were proud of doing it.

So maybe you could publish the truth and disabuse us of any doubts about your behavior.

I do agree with one thing you said. It's none of my business, so I won't say any more about it.

 

And that's where I will leave it. :thumbs:

 

There is no difference between having images of Mary and Joseph in a crèche at Christmas and having them in your church year round. In 21st Century America we cannot honestly say that anyone worships images. Churches have them there to honor the memory of the person depicted or to commemorate an event. Protestants do it during Christmas season and Catholics do it year round. That is the only difference. Indeed we see the same thing outside of churches. Our national capitol is full of images of prominent persons in our nation’s history, and no one bows down and worships them.

The situation might be different in primitive cultures. I have no firsthand knowledge but I’m told that images of Our Lady of Guadalupe are worshiped in parts of Mexico and Latin America. If that is the case, then they should get rid of her image both at Christmas and throughout the year. But that is not the case in the United States today.

 

You have documentation of that fact that in 1852 when the church was founded they observed Christmas, but that surely wasn't the norm for that day. The following is a quote from The New York Daily Times edition dated De­cember 26,1885, "The churches of the Presbyte­rians, Baptists, and Methodists were not open on December 25 except where some mission schools had a celebration. They do not accept the day as a holy one, but the Episcopalian Catholic, and German churches were all open. Inside they were decked with evergreens."

I know as late as 1936 the Baptist church I attended still had questions about having a Holy Day that can nowhere be found in scripture. However by scripture we do know where the tree came from, and it most certainly didn't have anything to do with worshiping God. Jeremiah 10:8 says the worship of trees is brutish, and just vanity. Can it be Christmas shows the carnal side of Christian worship?

Scripture please

 

Do you think we worship Christmas trees?

 

What is the purpose of a tree at Christmas, and why is there a tree in a church? Where did this idea come from?

 

The Catholics bake Baby Jesuses in the oven in their "king cakes"?

And bury Josephs in the dirt!

 

I never heard of “king cakes” but I don’t think they countenance burying Josephs in the dirt. This is from the Q&A section of the catholic.com forum on Nov. 7, 2011:

To which the official reply was:

 

Like Annsni said, they're pretty. What is the purpose of having flowers on the communion table on Sunday morning?

Because they're pretty and appropriate for the season. Do you really think a Christmas tree conjures up images or thoughts of false gods? Do you know anyone who prays to a Christmas tree?

I don't know exactly where it came from, other than that it originated hundreds of years ago in northern Europe. Whether it has pagan or Christian origins doesn't matter. The Christmas tree today is thoroughly a part of a Christian tradition.

 

Getting back to this thread, I missed your post, and apologize for the over sight abcgrad. An eyesight problem causes this to happen if I am not extra careful.

I can see your point, and understand it, the fact however is did God see this practice of worshipping a god, which I would take to mean HIM also, to be of vanity, and brutish mentality? Our Lord left us with specific instructions of how we are to remember Him. So who is it that we believe?

If we believe what Jesus said to His Apostles, and then revealed to Paul, you tell the Gentiles to do the same thing, for this is what I wish you would do. I would say He means No more, as anything could (and has) led Christianity back into HOLY DAYS, with rituals, just like the heathens, and the absolute need to have a Xmas Tree for us to look at, and say, Oh! Just look at this beautiful tree we present to you, and all the presents we bring to each other. Do any of us really believe God gives us His blessings by giving to each other that in most cases don't need the gifts? Then if we have anything left, we perhaps may give something to a Love offering. It looks to me we should ask is this accordant with His wishes.

Some day we will know if we obeyed Him. Am I guilty also? You bet! But more study into the matter of w WHAT He says, and wants us to do, changed me in this matter. I also know works has nothing to do with trying to keep me saved. Our worship is to be spiritual, and our conversation is with Him in Heaven. Our works are to be daily, and each should be Holy in Him.

It looks as if you believe as I; The Word of God was made flesh while the Shepard's tended their sheep by night in the hills. There is truth in the Bible, and I believe what I read in the scriptures. Evidently I must be wrong, for I thought Shepard's would have their flock's inside in winter, and feed them of the feed that is in the manger. Can you please give more light on this matter? Did the Shepard's feed the sheep in the Manger that was now empty, and take the sheep into the hills. This really doesn't make sense to me, for I thought Shepard's took their flocks outside while the grass was growing to feed them. Can anyone help me to understand why the Shepard's were outside in the winter, trying to feed the flock with dried grass, when they should be inside feeding at the trough?

Can't speak for your friend in these matters, but can tell you that Good Works were done long be Catholichood came into existence. As to the good works of the Catholic's, I believe we all know they do good works, and I say BRAVO, for they do these the year round, as do all Christians, and yes some more than others. Much of good works by individual Christians could add up to more than the Catholic Church, as a church. I believe we will be judged, not doing a work for the sake of work, but work out of Love. In this regard I believe the Catholic church to be of Peter, and then of James who tells us very pointedly man must first do a Work to show their faith.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why nobody notices to whom James preaches to. James was not chosen to present his gospel to a Gentile, and he never did, unless they came into the camp as a proselyte to the Jewish faith. Scriptures show us the Gospel the Jew was to present to the Jew, and we see it vividly in James 2:21-22. " Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" That is not the Gospel I believe. I believe the works of Jesus made perfect the Faith I come through. My faith is in my Lord Jesus Christ ALONE, and I sure don't expect my Own Works to get me into His Body.

I believe there are some who will be in the kingdom gospel that was at hand, and others who believe only in the perfect works of Jesus Christ, and will be caught up to Him in the air, before the Saints go marching into that Promised Kingdom for them, and their proselytes.

 

Agree the pictures are pretty. But where in the Bible does it say to bring a tree into a church in order for the members to worship God. Who does the Tree represent?



As the Tree is there, surely one of the Christmas Carol's must be …

O Christmas, tree, O Christmas tree!

How are thy leaves so verdant!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
How are thy leaves so verdant!​

Not only in the summertime,

But even in winter is thy prime.​

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,

How are thy leaves so verdant!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
Much pleasure doth thou bring me!​

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,

Much pleasure doth thou bring me!
For every year the Christmas tree,
Brings to us all both joy and glee.​

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,

Much pleasure doth thou bring me!​

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,

Thy candles shine out brightly!​

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,

Thy candles shine out brightly!
Each bough doth hold its tiny light,
That makes each toy to sparkle bright.​

O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,

Thy candles shine out brightly!​

 

There is surely a big difference between Christmas trees and the items in your list, Ann.

The bible does not say we are to have crosses, and for that reason, many churches don't have them in their buildings.

The bible also does not say we must have a table for the Lord's Supper; it would still be the Lord's Supper if the bread and wine were to be placed on a plank supported by two trestles, or on a stool.

The bible does not even mention pews. A church is no less a church if it uses ordinary chairs.

The bible does not say we have to have hymn books, but unless everyone in the congregation knows every word of every hymn sung, (and they would all have to know the same version of every hymn), the words must be available in some format, whether overhead projection/PowerPoint, or printed sheets.

The bible does not say that church buildings must have carpets. Some do, and some don't.

The bible does not say that church buildings must have lighting. Most do, for practical reasons.

The bible does not say that church buildings must have air conditioning. I'm glad about that, because I don't know a church building that does have it.

But all those things (crosses, communion tables, pews, hymnals, carpeting, lighting and air conditioning) have a practical purpose. A decorated tree does not.

I should stress that I am not saying that churches which do have Christmas trees must be pagan! :laugh:

 

You know at the bottom of this discussion is the old arguement between:

What scripture doesn't forbid is okay

vs

What scripture doesn't specify is wrong/unwise

If you wish to deny yourself the pleasure of a Christmas, in the name of Christ, go for it!

In the same manner, I will enjoy the symbolism of the Christmas tree that resides in my foyer, in the name of Christ.

Let each person be convinced in his own mind!

 

Not sure if your post was a general comment, or an answer to mine, but if the second, I would just say that I wasn't arguing either for or against Christmas trees, just (unusually for me) disagree with Ann in her suggestions of things comparable to the question of whether or not a church should put up a Christmas tree in its building.

Whichever side of the argument we are on, I am sure we are agreed that the greatest pleasure of this season is the reminder it gives us that Almighty God took on human flesh, being born, laid in an animals' feeding trough, endured mockery and persecution, and went to the cross, so that sinners could be right with God. Praise His wonderful name!

 

Just general comment, Brother David.