Do Calvinist use “Philosophy” or Not?

May I ask in what sense do you find the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith "philosophical"?

 

I started a thread a few years ago asking how much of the Westminster Confession Of Faith that non-Cals agreed with. I quoted a fair number of sections from the Confession.Allan ended up saying that he had no objection to most of it. The 1689 is a slightly altered WCoF. It is more in line with the Baptist view.

I really think that if genuine Christians looked at The 1689 and read the Scripture references in context that support its conclusions --they would agree with at least 90% of it. Perhaps more than 90%. It summarizes major Christian doctrines. All true Christians whether Calvinistic or Arminian would have to conclude it is scriptural.

 

So ben, you learned calvinism on a live chat one day via a wiccan priest? Wow. It sounds to me like an episode from "Talk Back With Bob Larson" and just as credible. What an exhaustive and comprehensive grasp you must now have? Did the "wiccan priest" who allegedly chatted with you and taught you these things email you your diploma?

An alleged wiccan priest? Please. Wiccans reject the idea of Christianity due to one major fact: that it claims to be the only way. This teaching they despise and reject.

A wiccan calvinist? :laugh:

OK, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt... :laugh: :thumbsup:

Excellent response Iconoclast. You were clearly misrepresented again by ben. He's playing pretend. Here's yet another pretending quote of his, justifying himself for name calling and pejorative attitude (calling another a hypocrite and ignorant) to which I called him on, and to which he responded here:

First and foremost, I'm not your man.

Secondly, the insult was leveled at a person, not at an issue, thus the name calling. See?

As to your last sentence, stop pretending. No one has jumped in there to learn a thing from you, nor should a person.

Each of your posts are off track and misrepresentations. Furthermore, the fact that your philosophy denies the truth concerning Sovereignty, the Omnis of God, and the Biblical state of lost mankind, seeing these glaring deficiencies in your understanding of revealed truth, makes it easy to see your other errors since your entire foundation is crumbling. Your denials of the above truths have been seen and demonstrated by you on the BB. We've been over this numerous times.

In addition, nothing I've used is merely philosophical, although philosophy in itself is not error if rooted within the Word of God and it's Wisdom, stemming from what His Word says.

Now; "Philo" being love and "sophia" that of wisdom, being "the love of wisdom", and as one loving the Wisdom of God, would include my believing the Omniscience of God, something your philosophy doesn't embrace, and, loving the truth that God has shown my lost state as is the Biblical mandate in Romans 3 and other epistles by the breath of God, that I was completely incapable without Him to respond, which you also deny, that is, the true state of man set forth by Divine revelation. I confess I also love the Sovereignty of God, and embrace Him in all faith, knowing that nothing shall come to pass without His counsel, firmly trusting Romans 8:28, and yet I trust Him in it all, nor do I call any blame upon Him for the state of this world, nor for the actions of man which He has allowed, and I do not lay the charge by implication that He is somehow unfair, seeing that it is He, and not I, who is very God, and I nothing but clay in His merciful hand.

I also claim no power whatsoever in my choice, but instead give all glory to Him knowing that it is His Spirit that moved me to repentance, regenerated me to life, granted me faith by His Word, giving to me eternal life, making me His child, not I making myself such by a choice.

Any deviation away from the above truths is man based philosphy and is a denial of the truth.

- Peace

 

Wiccans!?!....Noooooooo Waaaaaaayyyyyy!!!:tongue3:

 

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just another feeble and failing attempt to paint the Calvinists as "darkness" and "evil." :laugh:

:love2:

 

Sorry to press the point a bit further, But it seems you are now saying that if a person accepts a Calvinistic understanding of soteriology, then the following things are true about him:

1. He needs a wider understanding of scripture
2. He is not humble
3. He is not subjecting himself to scripture
4. He is not pure. (of course, none of us are)
5. He does not realize the depth of his ignorance, sin, and inability to understand truth apart form revelation from God.

Have I correctly described your view of Calvinists?

 

EWF, would you enlighten me, where did "wiccans" enter the conversation? I cannot seem to find it. Do you know? BTW, this is an HONEST question not a pointed declaration of sarcasm.

 

I believe the calvinist view is based on a combination of scriptures which falls short of the whole counsel fo God, yes. I believe that we all start out as newborn Christians with very little understanding of the scriptures and must learn what they teach through the processes of learning which are available through God-given teachers and preachers, personal Bible study, and prayer, to list the main instruments of God.

God gives wisdom and understanding, but not all at once. Bible teachers and preachers are also subject to error, which forces us to seek God for right understanding and discernment. If we do not apply ourselves diligently to the things of God, seeking His face and guidance in doing the will of God, and humbling ourselves before Him, then we may end up stuck on error at some level of our growth.

What I'm saying about Calvinism, Arminianism, or other errors of Bible doctrine, is that the reason people are stuck on these errors is because they have not matured past those things and there may be some problem in their walk with God that is hindering their growth in wisdom and understanding. That principle holds true for me also, I believe. If I am wrong about Calvinism, then my problem is with God, since He is not getting through to me with the correction that I need.

I do pray to God for wisdom and correction, but that is no guarantee that I am right. Nevertheless, all of us think we are right (Prov. 21:2), and that can't be helped. If we ever thought we were wrong, then we would instantly change and we would again think we were right. It is up to each of us individually to try to improve our walking relationship with God so He can straighten us out if we need correction.

 

Thanks for the eloquent and honest words. Marke

 

This Westminster confession is an interesting contradiction.

4.2 After God had made all other creatures, he created human beings, male and female, with reasoning and immortal souls, making them fitted for that life for God for which they were created. They were made in the image of God, with knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness.

9.2 In his state of innocence, Adam had freedom and power to will and to do what was good and well-pleasing to God; but he was unstable so that he might fall from this condition.

Definition of UNSTABLE
: not stable : not firm or fixed : not constant
not steady in action or movement :
irregular wavering in purpose or intent :
lacking steadiness : apt to move, sway, or fall
characterized by lack of emotional control

Comparing the two statements, this tells me Adam was created in the image and likeness of God,

with knowledge but is unstable,

who is righteous but is unstable,

is in true holiness but is unstable.

Since Adam was created in God's likeness, it tells me

God is Holy but unstable,

God has all knowledge but is unstable,

and God is righteous but unstable.

If that is not twisted enough, we now are taught that God intended Adam to fall from this "unstable perfection". A perfection that God has placed a built in failure switch to sin. Interesting.

God: "Adam, don't eat from that tree in the midst of the garden. If you do, you will die. I love you and trust you, I let you name the creatures, I want you to multiply and subdue the earth, so I don't want you to die."

Adam: "Ok Lord."

God: "Adam, about that ability I gave you to choose...."

Adam: "Yes Lord?"

God: "Well, you are going to disobey me. You know that tree in the midst?"

Adam:" Yes Lord, I won't eat from it."

God: "Well you are going to eat from it, and there isn't a thing you can do about it. The thing is Adam, there is a serpent in the garden and he is going to lie to you about the tree, and you are going to believe him."

Adam: "But Lord my eyes are on you, and you said the wife and I will die if we eat. Do I still have a choice?"

God: "No son, I can't trust you because of the way I created you. You're unstable. It's for My glory, you'll understand later."

Adam: "What about the children Eve and I will have Lord, you know, to multiply?"

God: "It's going to be tough for them because of your disobedience Adam. Some of them will be saved, but alot of them will reject me and will end up in Hell."

Adam: "But Lord I have not disobeyed you."

God: "Oh you will disobey Adam, I've made you unstable."

Genesis 1
26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ......" But he will be unstable so he might fall and die.

27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." So they will fall and die.

31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good......" Except that he will be unstable so he might fall and die.

Job 8:20 "Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:" Except Adam, who I will cast away, and all his children, on purpose, because I created him unstable. Sorry kids.

 

Plain and Simple, where are going with this? What would you say was the "cause" of Adams "poor" choice? Perhaps start another thread so as not to derail Benjamins. (if so inclined) It almost always leads to interesting discussions and exchanges.

 

Someone on this thread said that the Westminster confession(philosophy) was good and that Christians would agree with it. It was quite humorous. The cause of Adams poor choice is that he took his eyes off God(freewill to do so), and believed the lie.

 

Time for some scriptural proof of the utter and complete sovereignty of God. I will strive to find verses where God is doing some action whether or not humans respond or have a choice in the matter even if they have had some interaction:

Matthew 1:18 (ESV)
Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.


Matthew 1:20-22 (ESV)
But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. [21] She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." [22] All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:

Matthew 1:24 (ESV)
When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife,

Matthew 2:13 (ESV)
Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him."

Matthew 2:15 (ESV)
and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt I called my son."

Matthew 2:17 (ESV)
Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah:


Matthew 2:19 (ESV)
But when Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,

Matthew 2:23 (ESV)
And he went and lived in a city called Nazareth, that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled: "He shall be called a Nazarene."

Matthew 3:2-3 (ESV)
"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." [3] For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said,
"The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
Prepare the way of the Lord;
make his paths straight."

Matthew 3:9 (ESV)
And do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.

Matthew 3:11-12 (ESV)
"I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. [12] His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire."

Matthew 3:14-15 (ESV)
John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" [15] But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he consented.


Matthew 4:1 (ESV)
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
Matthew 4:4 (ESV)
But he answered, "It is written,
" 'Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "

Matthew 4:7 (ESV)
Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.' "


Matthew 4:10 (ESV)
Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written,
" 'You shall worship the Lord your God
and him only shall you serve.' "

Matthew 4:14 (ESV)
so that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:


Matthew 4:16 (ESV)
the people dwelling in darkness
have seen a great light,
and for those dwelling in the region and shadow of death,
on them a light has dawned."

Matthew 4:17 (ESV)
From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Matthew 4:19-20 (ESV)
And he said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." [20] Immediately they left their nets and followed him.


Matthew 4:21-22 (ESV)
And going on from there he saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets, and he called them. [22] Immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him.

Matthew 6:1 (ESV)
"Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 6:5-6 (ESV)
"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. [6] But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.


Matthew 6:8 (ESV)
Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.


Matthew 6:10 (ESV)
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.


Matthew 6:13 (ESV)
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.


Matthew 6:26 (ESV)
Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?


Matthew 6:27 (ESV)
And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?

Matthew 6:30 (ESV)
But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

Matthew 7:21-23 (ESV)
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'


Matthew 7:28-29 (ESV)
And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, [29] for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.


Matthew 8:2-3 (ESV)
And behold, a leper came to him and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, if you will, you can make me clean." [3] And Jesus stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, "I will; be clean." And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.


Matthew 8:15 (ESV)
He touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she rose and began to serve him.


Matthew 8:16-17 (ESV)
That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick. [17] This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: "He took our illnesses and bore our diseases."


Matthew 8:19-22 (ESV)
And a scribe came up and said to him, "Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go." [20] And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head." [21] Another of the disciples said to him, "Lord, let me first go and bury my father." [22] And Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."


Matthew 8:25-27 (ESV)
And they went and woke him, saying, "Save us, Lord; we are perishing." [26] And he said to them, "Why are you afraid, O you of little faith?" Then he rose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm. [27] And the men marveled, saying, "What sort of man is this, that even winds and sea obey him?"


Matthew 8:29 (ESV)
And behold, they cried out, "What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?"


Matthew 8:32 (ESV)
And he said to them, "Go." So they came out and went into the pigs, and behold, the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned in the waters.

 

The Sovereignty of God is summed up in one verse:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Genesis 1:1

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

:laugh::laugh::laugh::thumbs:...P4t-wiccan calvinists use the color red when they post...very cultic and freakish.lol

 

Genesis 1:28 "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."
( But not really, my servant Calvin has decreed that I shall not give man authority to subdue or have dominion)

Proverbs 18:21 "Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof."
(But not really, my servant Calvin has stated that only I have authority, and I shall not give the power of life and death in man's tongue)

Luke 9:1
"Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases."
( But not really, my servant Calvin has decreed that Jesus did not give power or authority to His followers, sickness is to teach people a lesson)

Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
(But not really, my servant Calvin says that only I have authority to bind and loose, and I should not of given this power)

 

I'm glad we finally got this settled...

 

Lol, God made His perfect creation "unstable".