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can God REALLY Be Sovereign IF mankind as a "Full" Free Will?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Dec 26, 2011.

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  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    man must be able to receive the Gospel though first!

    Spiritual "killed off" by the fall of Adam, so unless God opens our minds/herats up, by application of effectual grace, we can never accept Jesus, as our sinnatures always would refuse!
     
    #81 JesusFan, Dec 31, 2011
  2. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Scripture please.
     
    #82 freeatlast, Dec 31, 2011
  3. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Ask and ye shall receive!
    1 Corinthians 15:22
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [a]Christ all will be made alive.
     
    #83 JesusFan, Dec 31, 2011
  4. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    :laugh::laugh::laugh: Nice try, but you need to go back to the drawing board.
     
    #84 freeatlast, Dec 31, 2011
  5. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple Active Member

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    "can God REALLY Be Sovereign IF mankind as a "Full" Free Will?"

    God gave us the choice between two masters. He gave us power over life and death in the tongue. God told us to have dominion and subdue. God never took back our freedom of choice. He never said "Make a choice, but if it is wrong I will change it according to My will." When people say that God is sovereign and in total control, it sounds spiritual and wise, but it is a false assumption of scripture and a false religion from Satan. Satan is as a roaring lion. Satan came to kill steal and destroy. Believers are in a battle, to destroy the works of Satan.
     
    #85 plain_n_simple, Dec 31, 2011
  6. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Reeks of universalism........
     
    #86 convicted1, Jan 1, 2012
  7. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Can he choose his "drawing board", or was it chosen for him before the foundation of the world?
     
    #87 convicted1, Jan 1, 2012
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You have got to be kidding:eek::eek:

    so dan 4 ......is from satan.....
     
    #88 Iconoclast, Jan 1, 2012
  9. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Guess Apostle paul not "inspired' enough...

    Any other sources that you care to quote that were 'more inspired?"
     
    #89 JesusFan, Jan 3, 2012
  10. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    I quote Apostle paul, NOT Robb Bell!
     
    #90 JesusFan, Jan 3, 2012
  11. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    isn't it amazing that those who try to avoid the sovereingty of God find themselves stuck when pressed for on what basis is their Election based upon? God or them?
     
    #91 JesusFan, Jan 3, 2012
  12. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple Active Member

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    What does it have to do with Jesus? A common mistake is using the OT prophets to make scripture say what we need. God tells us to listen to His Son. The Law and Prophets are useful, if it is about Jesus.

    Luke 24:27
    And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he (Jesus) expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself.

    Acts 28:23
    And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

    Matthew 11:13
    For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

    Luke 16:16
    The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

    Matthew 17:3-5
    And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

    Mark 9:5-8
    And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

    Luke 9:33-35
    And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said. While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

    Luke 24:44
    And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    ...and a few more.
     
    #92 plain_n_simple, Jan 3, 2012
  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Hi Plain and simple;
    Amen to your post.
    MB
     
    #93 MB, Jan 4, 2012
  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Regeneration is not an opening of the mind.
    The fall of Adam did not disable man. That my friend is nothing but the imagination of man it isn't found any where in the Bible. The suposed dead spirit of man is only a figure of speach. One that Jews used all the time when they disowned there children. They would declare there children dead to them. It is not an actual death at all. The human body cannot live with out there spirit to animate it. Yes we are considered dead to God but God is not dead to us nor is He unreachable.
    No one has ever proved man is not able to respond to the gospel with out regeneration.
    MB
     
    #94 MB, Jan 4, 2012
  15. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    when adam sinned against God, he found that his relationship with God was severed/cut off, as he was now under judgements of both physical/spiritual death!

    ALL of us now born as sinners, and as such, in and by ourselves we will not come to theLord, as we prefer darkness to the light!

    ONLY those whom the Lord has enabled to come to Christ will be able to, and the difference between cals and Arms is that we say that God ONLY enables those whom he elected to receive Christ, while arms see it as God gracing ALL to potentially become the elect, that part up to us and how we then respond to jesus!
     
    #95 JesusFan, Jan 4, 2012
  16. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Good post! (except for "that part up to us...")

    Let me further add that when the fall of Adam occurred it was by direct choice of Adam choosing Eve over God. The fellowship with God was lost to Adam. He could do NOTHING to regain the state of Eden where he could fellowship and call upon God. He was not only put out of the garden but was banned/barred from ever returning to that place. So it is with all men for all have sinned.


    The thinking that man has a "free will" or "free choice" then is faulty. For does not the Scriptures consistently teach that sin is binding, a slave owner, and that a person who is not saved is sin filled - completely in sin? When was ever a person in such a condition that they were "free?" Adam was not free, he had no choice after he sinned. He remained under the judgment of God. Even the working conditions changed.

    The Scriptures also teach that when one is "in Christ" they are subject to the thinking and things of God. The determiner in the life of a believer is the Holy Spirit. Man, "in Christ," has the whole economy of their existence bound up in He who loved us and gave Himself for us.

    I see no free will, free choice, freedom of consequences anywhere in Scriptures.

    Again, just because a person is shown divergent paths, various alternatives does not make them free to choose. Being shown doesn't equate to ability to choose.

    Example:

    Consider a person who has been shoved off a cliff (wages of sin has committed the person to death). On the way down, they may spot many paths, many alternative positions to take in both the fall and the landing. There is no alternative to falling. No free will. No choice. They are dead as they still fall. No physical, mental, emotional, vocal, or any other appeal by that person will stem the fall. They are dead.

    Now consider such a person when God comes as a great eagle grabbing that person out of the midst of the fall unto death. Again, there is seen on the skyward journey many paths, many alternative positions to be clutched and held. But the person is firmly in the grasp of the eagle - clutched as the eagle desires, the path taken as the eagle establishes, and the person is taken to where the eagle determines, never, not one bit under or by the strength of the person.

    Man is not as a fish in the sea swimming about to perchance upon the hook of Christ baited with enticing words and cunning emotional appeal.

    No "free will." No "free choice."
     
    #96 agedman, Jan 4, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2012
  17. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Man, as a direct result of the fall of adam, now ONLY has "free will" in the sense still must be allowed/permitted by god, as God can still choose to override as he see fit, and limited by being in "Bondage to the Fleash" so will be free to chose to do ONLY what the sinful flesh will allow/permit!

    And accepting jesus by faith NOT part of our "natural selves!"
     
    #97 JesusFan, Jan 4, 2012
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