Featured Cannot believe?

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Assuming in order for us to receive regenerated life Jesus had to die and be resurrected again, is that above in bold where that regeneration comes from?

Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him(Jesus Christ) from the dead; )

Assuming the above from Gal is absolute truth, that the Father raised the Son from the dead; Does that also mean that John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth, is relative to the Father and the Son, which is how, John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; Was accomplished? Is not, to have life in oneself, eternal life? Was it not Jesus who received this promise?
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Becoming the Author of eternal salvation, Heb. 5:9? Is not the grace of God, salvation, the gift of God, eternal life that which comes through Jesus Christ our Lord. Grace comes through Jesus Christ. Grace comes through the faith. From Romans 5:19 Does; We shall be saved by his life = by Grace through the faith ='s we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son?

For the wages of sin death; but the gift of God eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Does through not mean Jesus received it by inheritance and we are joint heirs with him of eternal life?

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The soul that sins it shall die. For he (God) hath made him (Jesus) sin for us, who knew no sin; But flesh with the life (nephesh soul) thereof, [which is] the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood (where the soul is) cannot inherit the kingdom of God; yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, because he hath poured out his soul unto death:

Above from Ezek 18:20, 2 Cor 5:21, Gen 9:4, 1 Cor 15:50, Col 1:21,22, Isa 53:10 and Isa 53:12

Christ died for us.

Back to the OP The faith of Jesus Christ came before the regeneration of Jesus Christ by God the Father and that is what we should believe.

 

Ok Brother convicted, the above I take the same as John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither is goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

also the same as Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Voice of God and the Spirit blowing like the wind is the same thing that regenerates those that were dead in sins. But instantly they have ears to hear with and eyes to see with as I stated before in Proverbs 20:12.

These are now alive in Christ and have eternal salvation that God purposed for them in Christ before the foundation of the world and that was accomplished when he died for them and rose again for them. Now it is a vital union in them by the working of His Spirit.

Now come along with me as I try and demonstrate what I believe. We have two trees after a long winter. One is alive and has it's sap with in it and the other is dead and is dried up on the inside. The sap in the living tree is a vital part of that tree though it doesn't differ from the other tree by looking at them after winter. but When the spring comes so does the sunshine and rain and it causes the alive tree to bring forth it's fruit while the dead tree brings forth no fruit. The sap is the Spirit. The sunshine and rain it the gospel.

So when the gospel is preached to the living person it has an effect. But to the dead tree it has no effect. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. Hebrews 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. They did not have faith which is the fruit of the Spirit because they didn't have the Spirit in regeneration.

Though we were saved in Christ when he was crucified and rose again for us to reconcile us to God but now through hearing the truth preached it saves us from doubt and fears that we have when we see that we of our selves come short of the Glory of God. It casues us to rest from our labors and put this Faith that we have from the Spirit in the object preached to us. That object being Christ Jesus. The Gospel brings forth that fruit from the Spirit much like the Sunshine and rain causes the tree with the sap to bring forth it's fruit. Now this out ward man as Paul said about his flesh dwelleth no good thing. But Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselfs to be dead indead unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus CHrist our Lord. So then when we are obedient to this, is this not the life and salvation we are to have here on his footstool as we live in this time. Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. If..... in obedients to the Spirit, that we have because in the next verse it says For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. But in the 9th verse it says if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. They would only walk according to their depraved nature but we that have the new nature through the Spirit Can mortify the deads of this body. and That is the life we have in CHrist Jesus.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom (In Christ, and to be in Christ is to be alive.) ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Sealed with that promise that while we were yet sinners Christ died for the ungodly. That he which begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. What great hope we have in Christ through the gospel being preached to us.

Isaiah 42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them. yes, we that have faith in and are sealed with this promise when we hear the truth that sets us free.

Now them that hear the voice are made alive just as much as them that are in the graves shall hear when that hour cometh in verse 28. This voice is not the gospel preached. It is the Voice of God. 1 Samuel 2:6 The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

God did not regenerate us inwardly with the preacher and the preacher will not be needed to raise the dead from the graves and though they be dead they shall hear when his voice calls. It is his voice that causes us to hear. then we have ears to hear the gospel.

Yes the gospel is our sunshine that causes our Faith the fruit to come forth and to be put in Jesus Christ. And He is our life.

 

Regeneration before faith is ridiculous.



"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. But you will tell me that I ought to preach it only to those who repent of their sins. Very well; but since true repentance of sin is the work of the Spirit, any man who has repentance is most certainly saved, because evangelical repentance never can exist in an unrenewed soul. Where there is repentance there is faith already, for they never can be separated. So, then, I am only to preach faith to those who have it. Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners. "Nay," saith one, "but we mean that a man must have some good desires towards Christ before he has any warrant to believe in Jesus." Friend, do you not know what all good desires have some degree of holiness in them? But if a sinner hath any degree of true holiness in him it must be the work of the Spirit, for true holiness never exists in the carnal mind, therefore, that man is already renewed, and therefore saved. Are we to go running up and down the world, proclaiming life to the living, casting bread to those who are fed already, and holding up Christ on the pole of the gospel to those who are already healed? My brethren, where is our inducement to labour where our efforts are so little needed? If I am to preach Christ to those who have no goodness, who have nothing in them that qualifies them for mercy, then I feel I have a gospel so divine that I would proclaim it with my last breath, crying aloud, that "Jesus came into the world to save sinners"—sinners as sinners, not as penitent sinners or as awakened sinners, but sinners as sinners, sinners "of whom I am chief.""

C.H. Spurgeon

We are born again through the enduring word of God. I had no idea where it came from until they told me it was the words of Jesus.

Jesus word is Spirit and life, His word is the word of God. Jesus word was not His own but the Father who sent Him.

We have no life in us it is only in Jesus Christ. I am not worthy to have life in me apart from Jesus. There is no life in me from the beginning only in Christ before the foundation of the world


John 6:
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me...

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths
]

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.

Matthew 11:25
[ The Father Revealed in the Son ] At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Hebrews 4:
1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.[Some manuscripts because those who heard did not combine it with faith] 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”

And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”

6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

 

I am very aware that the jews first trusted in Christ, The jews that were regenerated as much as the gentiles that were regenerated in Christ. I don't believe the gospel preached saves us for Heaven. Christ alone accomplished that but the gospel saves those in time from the fears, and doubts and saves us unto the hope and assurance of what Christ did on Calvary. It saves us with the knowledge of Christ. It causes us to rest from our labors like the Jews that were ignorant of His righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness. It causes us to cease from trying to justify ones self by the works of law and to rest in Christ by faith. and that in itself is salvation. Thas is why Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Christ said I in you and you in me and the salvation we find is that which Christ already accomplished for us and is in us. Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) That call is the holy call according to 2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. then in Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. Then his mercy is what enables us from the depraved state we were in to will and to run. Then being justfied not by the works of the law but by Faith in CHrist. This faith will produce good works. That is why we have the verses in Philippians 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. We dont work to get eternal salvation but working the benefits of that eternal salvation we have while we live on the earth. That is why Paul told Timothy as I stated before in 1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine: continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. You have to admit that the saved in this verse is not talking about getting eternal life but being saved from false doctrine so that his children are not entangled with false teachings.

 

When I was free from my parents and got do what I wanted and I thought it would be so awesome, but I found out it brought me more responsibility. I wanted my freedom and I got it.

 

Brother Jeremy, I fully understand what you are saying, but you have this backwards. Hearing is what brings life; not life bringing hearing.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


1 Cor. 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


According to this passage here in Romans 10, no one is saved until they 1st, believe, and then 2nd, call/pray unto the Lord for His forgiveness.

No one is regenerated and then saved at a later date. No one. When one is regenerated, they are saved at the point of regeneration.

 

You seem to always have something to say that really adds to a thread! Well stated Brother.

 

Anutter 9.95 out of 10.0 post!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

Well, you say you understand where I am coming from and I understand as well where you are coming from and we dont see it the same. I am really not one to say I am right and you are wrong. I am not here to win the debate just put forth what I believe and how I understand it. As long as others can see where I am on the scriptures that is all I am doing here. As the scriptures say in Romans let God be true but every man liar. So that is where we all need to go to in the end. We need to pray to God to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

I quoted you on these scriptures out of Romans and want to consider the eighth verse as well in that passage. Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; One thing I want to consider first is the word was nigh them in their mouth and in their heart that they could do it. They could be obeident or disobeident but the point is the word was nigh them... in them... Now consider what Jesus said to the natural jews in John 5:37-38 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

They never heard the voice of God the Father and were not regenerated and likewise did not believe in Christ whom he had sent. John 6:45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day. Consider the parable of the sewer Matthew chapter 13. In the 8th verse But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. The good ground. You know before a ground is planted it has to be prepared. Tilled and broken up.
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. This is the work of regeneration that is done by God. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 4:15 ... for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. The Gospel affect was done in Christ. Christ said I in you and you in me. The Spirit had done it's work on the heart. The Good ground was prepared. The gospel had an affect on the hearer. Looking again at Roman chapter 10 verse 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; not into but unto because righteouness is in Christ and we are in Christ that is why the word is nigh in our heart. we are connected to it in Christ. and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. not into salvation but unto it. Because salvation is in Christ and we are in Christ and we are connected unto it. Once again I go back to 1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, Where does God dwell? God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ Will be born of God? is born of God:

I put forth my position as best as I understand it, I once too did not hold it but I could no longer deny it. I leave with this again also Proverbs 16:1 THE PREPARATIONS of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

 

Brother Winman, I do take single scriptures to mean that and you take the same scripture not the same as I. We both understand (at least I do) that a single scripture is always interpreted many different ways by man and other groups. That is why the scriptures say in 1 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. Several men can read the same scripture and have several meanings. I then believe other scriptures will narrow down what it is saying. That is why I believe it is to be done in the manner of Isaiah 28:9-10 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: I have put forth what I understand and believe as well as you have done the same and we see it differently. I do use this forum as a learning exercise to sharpen my self and hopefully others and mean no ill will towards anyone. I pray for you winman to grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ and hope you do the same for me as it says in Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. I have enjoyed the conversation we have had in the scriptures for there is no better thing we can consider than what sayeth the word of God. I know I am not perfect and pray to God to give me understanding more and more as I grow in him. I know from where I once was to where I am now I would debate my own self. I have been converted on many things from where I started at in Christ. But we must remember that we are to do this in love. I feel we have covered the topic and both have put forth what we believe so God bless you and every one else. I will sign off for now on this topic in love brother Jeremy Slone.

 

I didn't read all the posts of this thread so forgive me if I am repeating something already addressed.

Having said that, here is IMO the root of the difficulty:

KJV John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.​

God enlightens every man who comes into the world.​

Difficulty for us: The scripture doesn't illiterate exactly what that enlightenment means as to the details.​

In the context of the Gospel of John in these preliminary chapters it has to do with light and darkness and upon which we put our stamp of approval.​

I agree with calvinism that without this enlightenment no one can be saved.​

I also agree with some of non-calvinism that it is a universal enlightenment "every man coming into the world".​

It is a determining light to show us what we are and if we love what we are and therefore put our stamp of approval on what we are.​

It would also seem that every man is given an opportunity to accept or reject in a given window of opportunity.

John 1
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​

John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.​

It seems that by the time we arrive here on planet earth the die has already been cast but for righteousness sake we must play it out.​

However ...

"BUT with God all things are possible"​

If you are not happy with your darkness and what you have been shown about yourself then...

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
​

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.​

HankD​