Featured Regenerated/saved "through faith"

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

1. "If anyone love me" It means "If any one of you love me." He was speaking to the 12. He was with them in a close room. There was no one else there. How could he be talking to anyone else but them?

2. "We will come unto him and make our abode with him" This is a reference to the coming of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit had not come yet, and would not come until after Jesus had died, and after his resurrection and ascension. On the Day of Pentecost he came. From that day onward he would come at the same time every believer trusted Christ as Savior and would indwell them at the time of conversion.
Cross reference that to Acts 1:4 and we are told that they were commanded to wait at Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit would come.

Now when a person gets saved he doesn't have to wait for the Holy Spirit to come.
But the disciples were already saved. To suggest that they had to wait is to suggest that they were not saved, for we receive the Holy Spirit when we are saved. But this was a specific historical act that would take place at Pentecost. That is why they had to wait.

All Scripture must be taken in its historical context.

As I have said many times before, though he said this to his disciples and was teaching his disciples, there are still applications and lessons that we can gain from it also. One thing is clear however. It is not a teaching that is applicable to the unsaved.

 

Think they need to realise that Acts is a "transisition" book, as it records faithfully for us how the church operated between ending of old and full installment of the new Covenant, as Charasmatics and other base faulty doctrine on it, as they also fail to see that all that was recorded down was true, but not all is Normitive for us today!

 

Jesus says if anyone loves me, they will get my teachings and obey them. Jesus also says those who do not do what he commands then they do not love him.
So tell me DHK, does that mean if anyone outside that room does NOT get his teachings and does NOT obey him it means they love Jesus and he will save them? LOL Because that is EXACTLY what you teach.

I know what it means; I have been explaining it to you all along. There is a condition to the people receiving the Holy Spirit, and the condition is if they love Jesus, and show that they love Jesus by getting his teachings and obeying them.

What you say here does not make any difference to Jesus saying if anyone loves me, he will get Jesus
Teachings and obey them.

Again, what you say does not change John 14:23 one bit.

You miss the point completely. They would not even receive the Holy Spirit if they were not of ones to obey Jesus. You keep bringing up a specific historical act, but that does not change ANYTHING about God’s Word.

Again, the historical event changes NOTHING about God’s Word. You do not want to give up what your religion has been teaching you for so long.

If an UNSAVED person reads what Jesus says in John 14:23, and that UNSAVED person does what Jesus says about getting his teachings and obeying them, THEN JESUS WILL SAVE THAT PERSON.

 

That is not exactly what I teach; that is what you want to hear me teach.
What I said is, that is what Jesus taught his disciples. They were the only ones there. He didn't teach you that; you weren't there. However, I also said, there are applications and lessons that we can take from that Scripture and apply to ourselves. That is true of most Scripture. It is not for the unsaved for Jesus was not speaking to the unsaved.

Secondly the last half of your quote is false. I never said that. If those outside do not get his teachings and do not obey, it means they love Jesus and Jesus will save them?? Utter nonsense. I said no such thing. You try to put words in my mouth and misrepresent what I said. That is called lying.

The only "condition" to being saved is believing in Christ.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
--You don't believe this verse??
--You are teaching heresy here. Nowhere does the Bible demand obedience to receive the Holy Spirit. That is the teaching of cults such as the Oneness Pentecostal. They teach that that salvation is followed by baptism of the Holy Spirit which is evidenced by speaking in tongues. Is that what you believe also. You teach a works based salvation which is heresy. Salvation is by grace through faith and it is not of works (obedience). The Holy Spirit comes and indwells a person the moment he gets saved. If you want to believe what Jesus said, then go and wait at Jerusalem for the Holy Spirit to come. Why haven't you obeyed him in that command?

It does make a difference--it makes a big difference.
Who made you the arbitrator of which commands of Jesus one should obey and which commands one should not obey. If you say you should obey Jesus commands then you should obey them all, shouldn't you. That is your teaching, your theology.

1. Go to Jerusalem and wait for the coming of the Holy Spirit.
--That was a command of Jesus.
2. Luke 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
--Did you do that Moriah? It is a command of Jesus.
3. Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
--This is a command of Jesus. Have you obeyed this command Moriah?

There are three commands. Have you obeyed any one of them? Do you keep the commands of Jesus? Or are there some commands that are not meant for you?

You just ignore the context that he was teaching his twelve disciples, who were saved, who were told to go to Jerusalem and wait there for the Holy Spirit, who would come to them on the Day of Pentecost. You ignore the teachings of Jesus completely.

They were saved. Peter had confessed that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, the son of the living God. Jesus told him that flesh and blood had not revealed this to him but my Father in heaven. Jesus testified to his salvation. His salvation was not kept by "obedience." Jesus testified to his salvation and called them "his sheep," sheep that would never perish. They had eternal life already. They would never lose it. It did not depend on obedience. In fact Peter denied the Lord 3 times, and still was a great leader. It did not depend on obedience.

Your religion which you have been teaching so long is a heretical one in that it is a works-based religion just like all the religions of the world. Christianity alone teaches salvation is by grace through faith. That is what makes it different. There is not one thing you can do to merit eternal life and yet you think that you can help Jesus on the cross. You think that the works you do are just as precious as his blood that was shed on the cross for you. That is why you keep so much emphasis on works. Your works are equal to his blood, and that is a blasphemous teaching.

Yes, all teaching must be taken in its historical context.

1. Unsaved people don't normally read God's word.
2. Unsaved people don't obey Christ.
3. Unsaved people can't love Christ.
4. It is impossible for an unsaved person to obey the teachings of John 14:23.

Furthermore the verse is written specifically to Christians not to the unsaved.

 

YOU DO teach that we can do NOTHING in order for Jesus to save us, so that IS what you teach.
It is EXACTLY what you teach! LOL

Jesus says if anyone loves me, they will get my teachings and obey them. Jesus also says those who do not do what he commands then they do not love him.

So tell me DHK, does that mean if anyone outside that room does NOT get his teachings and does NOT obey him it means they love Jesus and he will save them? LOL Because that is EXACTLY what you teach.

You say it is heresy to say we get his teachings and obey them to be saved!

Now you are flipping back to saying what Jesus says in John 14:23 is for us too. So, are you admitting now that we have to get Jesus’ teachings and obey them, and then we will receive the Holy Spirit?

Just because you do not understand, does not make those you do not understand a liar. It is not nonsense that I speak, it is nonsense what you speak, for YOU teach that we cannot get Jesus’ teachings and obey them before we are saved, yet Jesus says that is how we receive the Holy spirit.

If that were true, then you would have been saved as a Catholic child. If what you say were true, then Jesus would not have said what he did in John 14. If what you say is true, then you could not explain Acts 5:32.

What do you think believe on the Lord Jesus Christ means? It means believe what Jesus says we have to do to be saved. You really need to think about what believe on Jesus Christ means! Do you think believe on Jesus Christ means to picture the Catholics Jesus on the cross and say you believe? Believing on Jesus Christ means believe in his teachings.

That scripture proves what I say. Whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins---you have to want remissions of sins!

I do not teach heresy, you are the one who teaches heresy.

Jesus teaches that, and so do the Apostles. Read Acts 5:32. Read James.

No.

You misunderstand Paul to your destruction.

Wow. That is a shame what you just did, you put obedience in where the scriptures does not say that.

That is beyond dense.

You do not even know if you are saved unless you examine yourself to see if you have been obeying.

Jesus is not walking around in an earthly body anymore. There are still things that we are supposed to do.

You are unreasonable. You teach since you cannot do those things, then you do not have to do anything. That is exactly what you teach. You even say that a person DOES NOT have to do anything that Jesus says and they will still be saved.

That is such a ludicrous statement.

That is how to get saved. Those unsaved who never obey Jesus they stay unsaved.

If they get Jesus’ teachings to obey them, then they are the ones that love Jesus, and Jesus will save them.

Jesus says to get his teachings and obey them. Are you saying Jesus did not teach much?

If an unsaved person gets Jesus’ teaches and obeys them, they are the ones who love Jesus. The Father will love those who love Jesus, and the Father and Jesus will make their home with the ones who get Jesus’ teachings and obey them. They will have gone from unsaved to saved.

 

All of which you say is moot. The conversation is centered around John 14:23, a verse that is directed to the disciples of Jesus, and therefore applicable to Christians only. It does not teach salvation. It has nothing to do with salvation. It has nothing to do with the unsaved.

John 14:23 was meant for his disciples, and thus applicable to Christians alone. It is not applicable to the unsaved. There is no gospel in John 14:23

For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to them which perish, but unto us which are saved, it is the power of God.

I have been consistent. You are slow to understand. Let's look again.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
--The bolded part does not apply to us. It is a prophetic promise applicable only to the disciples. When they would arrive at Jerusalem, after a few days the Day of Pentecost would come and they would receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. From that day onward every believer would receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit the very second they trusted Christ as Savior. That is what I have always taught.

I never said:
So, are you admitting now that we have to get Jesus’ teachings and obey them, and then we will receive the Holy Spirit?
as you accuse me of.
One does not have to obey Jesus teaching to receive the Holy Spirit. They simply have to TRUST Christ as Savior. That is not obedience; it is faith. Faith is not a work; not obedience. Obedience suggests work. Faith is not a work.

First, I understood what you said. You attributed things to me that I did not say. That is slander, and a lie.
Second, An unsaved person does not love God or obey God.
Third, when a person does get saved he receives the Holy Spirit immediately without obedience of any kind. Thus your teaching is false.

Clearly you don't understand what belief is.
There was a reason why Jesus in that same chapter (John 14) said this:

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
"The devils also believe." But they do not believe in Christ, in the sense that Christ is teaching here. He is telling his disciples to put their utmost confidence in him.

The only condition to being saved is believing in Christ and his sacrificial work, and that is all. That is what Acts 16:31; 10:43; Rom.10:9,10,13; 5:1; 4:1-5; Eph.2:8,9; John 5:24; John 3:16, 18, 36, 20:31 teach. They all teach the same thing. Believing in him brings you eternal life. Not obedience, but faith.

I believed on him many years ago and have never looked back since. He became the object of my faith. I put my faith in him.

I used to be a Catholic and go to the priest weekly to receive forgiveness of sins from a priest in a confessional. Every person wants to have forgiveness of their sins. Put your faith in Christ and he will give you forgiveness of sins--past, present, and future. I am glad you now believe in OSAS.

Any form of works salvation is heresy.

You continue to take Scripture out of context. The Holy Spirit had not even been given to the Gentiles at this time. The context is Peter's defense before the Sanhedrin. These were the very ones that had crucified the Lord. The Book of Acts is a book of transition. They were speaking in the Temple, a few days after which, they would never be allowed in again.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
1. We are witnesses.
2. The Holy Spirit is witness of these things.
3. Those that have obeyed him (as in the Day of Pentecost) have the Holy Spirit are also witnesses. They heard, were saved, obeyed in baptism, and during that time the Holy Spirit came upon all. But it came individually at the time they were saved.

Paul said concerning Abraham:
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--It wasn't his works that saved; it was his faith and faith alone. That is the way it is with every individual that comes to Christ. Read Heb.11.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, (obedience) lest any man should boast.
--any kind of obedience is work. Salvation is not of works. These are not OT works. They are works like prayer, study of God's word, baptism, going to church, etc. Any kind of work will not merit you heaven. Christ said, "It is finished." Salvation was finished at the cross." To try and add anything to it is blasphemous.

 

Is that what you call yourself. You are the one that insists on obeying all of the commands on Jesus. To remind you of the context of your remark, here is what was said:

If you want to believe what Jesus said, then go and wait at Jerusalem for the Holy Spirit to come. Why haven't you obeyed him in that command?

That is what the disciples were commanded to do by Jesus. Why don't you also obey him? Or do you get to pick and choose; pick and choose; pick and choose.

I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed to him against that day.

Which means we are to rightly divide the word of truth and recognize that John 14:23 was spoken to the disciples in a closed room and not everything he said was applicable to us.

Obedience does not save. That is a works salvation and is heresy.
Salvation is by faith and faith alone.
Salvation is all of God. Man has no part in salvation. Jesus paid it all.

What motivation does an unsaved person have to read God's Word?
The carnal mind is at enmity with God. They are trying to seek God as much as a thief is trying to seek a police station. Their human nature is depraved. The naturally go the opposite way of God. No, it is not a ludicrous statement; it is the truth, taught over and over again in Scripture.

I said: "Unsaved people don't obey Christ."
And you say "that is how to get saved," which is heresy. We don't believe in a works based salvation. The rest of the world does, but not Christianity.

Unsaved people don't love God. I just said that didn't I. The only people that love God are the saved. John 14:23 is not speaking about the unsaved or salvation.

Don't take what I said out of context, for it you do it becomes a lie.
Here is what I said:

It is impossible for an unsaved person to obey the teachings of John 14:23.
--John 14:23 was specifically written to the disciples of Jesus and therefore Christians only. It has nothing to do with the unsaved or with salvation.
Jesus doesn't save Christians who are already saved. The verse is spoken to Christians.

That is what John 14:23 says, but Jesus was speaking to his disciples not to the unsaved. Why are you perverting the Word of God? The verse is not speaking of salvation. That verse was written for the benefit of Christians.

 

the bib

Yes, but only some sinners, the elect, thats an important point !

Yes, but not all sinners, but just the Church He gave Himself for Eph 5:25, and His Death alone obtained for them before they are born Eternal Redemption Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The Elect are born in sin under the blessing of this Eternal Redemption, even before they believe !

 

No, it is not moot what I say. Jesus says those who obey him are the ones who love him, and the Father and he will make their homes with the ones who love him. You, on the other hand teach that we can do nothing that Jesus says, not even feel sorry for our sins. In fact, you say to say you obey Jesus before one is saved is heresy.

Salvation and being saved is the same thing. John 14:23 is about receiving the Holy Spirit. If you do not have the Holy Spirit, then you do not have salvation on this earth. If ANYONE, and WHOEVER gets Jesus’ teachings and obeys, they will receive the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said this to his Apostles too; he said the one who does not obey him does not love him. Now, answer me, was Jesus speaking to the saved? Of course he was! Was Jesus also speaking about the UNSAVED? Of course he was!

That is beyond neglectful for you to say John 14:23 is not gospel. What blasphemy to say such a thing.
s•pel/ˈgäspəl/
Noun:
1. The teaching or revelation of Christ.
2. A thing that is absolutely true.

You have no understanding. For you to say an unsaved person cannot read the Bible, get faith, and do what it says, and then be saved, is a lie.

You have no sight. Jesus did not ONLY COMMAND that they should go to Jerusalem and wait! Jesus said if you get my teachings and obey them! Jesus did NOT just teach them to go to Jerusalem and wait!

Accuse you of…I thought you finally came to see the Truth.

Trust Christ as Savior to what? You see, trusting Jesus is obeying. Trusting Jesus is to do what he says. To trust Jesus is not mere words without any action. What do you trust Jesus with when you hear the gospel? Are you just relying on the words I trust Jesus? To trust Jesus means you believe him when he says he will give you the Holy Spirit when you get his teachings and obey them.
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Faith without action is dead.

James 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Galatians 5:6 The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself though love.

Did you hear what Paul said? Paul said faith expressing itself through love…remember what Jesus said in John 14:23? He said those who obey me are the ones he love me. Now, read again what Paul says, he says THE ONLY THING THAT COUNTS IS FAITH EXPRESSING ITSELF THROUGH LOVE.

It is dead faith that you teach. You teach a do nothing faith, and that faith is never called saving faith, it is called dead faith.

You do not even understand the implications of what you teach. I have exposed your false beliefs. Of course, you want to say I am lying, that is what people say who do not give up their false beliefs.

An unsaved person can CHOOSE to obey Jesus’ teachings, and then they will be saved. How else do you think the unsaved are saved? You just do not know how preposterous you sound.

You do NOT even know if you are saved unless you examine yourself to see if you have been obeying! Do you not understand what that means? If you examine yourself and note that you have done nothing that Jesus says to do, except believe, do you think that that type of believing has saved you? NO.

So with your reasoning, Jesus should have told the Apostles “since you have the utmost confidence in me, you will receive my Holy Spirit.” THAT is the nonsense you teach, because you do NOT understand what faith is. Faith is believing what Jesus says, and after you do what Jesus says, he will reveal to you.

What do you believe in him? That Jesus did everything and you have to do nothing? If you say no of course not, then STOP TEACHING THAT.

You told me before that you were NOT sorry for sins before you were saved, so then, why did you want forgiveness for something you did if you are not sorry? You have no reasoning, DHK. You have wrongly attacked me for speaking the TRUTH.

I know I will always be saved, for I will always obey. Not everyone does.

That is some lie down and play dead faith that you keep preaching. It is not a work to be sorry. It is not a work to forgive your brother. It is not a work to ask for forgiveness. It is not a work to stop having sex with another woman to whom you are not married. It is not a work not to steal something.

It would be a work if you went and did things for observance of special days. It would be a work if you went to find an animal to take to the priest when you sinned. It would be a work to have to make you ceremonially clean just to worship God. It would be works to go be circumcised.

It would even be considered good works if you tried to be saved by having dinners for people you cared about, or inviting them in your home and treating them well. Those kinds of good works we do after we are saved; however, it is not the obedience I am speaking of that you wrongfully call works.

Again, works are not being sorry for sins and confessing them. That is what must be in our hearts to be saved we must understand that. God, who knows our hearts, gives us the Holy Spirit when He accepts us read Acts 15:8.

 

The truth that needs to be learned is that works are thought of in two senses not one. There are meritorious works performed only by God (the grounds of salvation) and there are works commanded by God of men. The works that God demands of men are NOT meritorious, yet none will be saved apart from doing them. There are works 'without which' no one shall be saved, that are works not meritorious in any way, yet again commanded of us by God to do, such as repentance and faith. Repentance and faith are again NOT works thought of in any meritorious connotation, but they are works in the sense of being acts of the will, judged by God as fulfilling necessary conditions without which none shall be saved.

 

DHK, as a point of clarification, can I call another a heretic on this list, or their beliefs as heresy (same thing) without offending another if I do in a way, from my own perspective anyway, as 'in love?' If I were to call notions you hold to heresy or call you a heretic, (one in the same thing) are you going to be offended by such remarks and reprimand me for doing so?

 

Yes it is. John 14:23 is addressed to his disciples--saved individuals; not to the unsaved. It is not speaking of salvation. Those that are unsaved cannot love Christ. It is not speaking about the unsaved.

The unsaved don't obey Jesus. They run to Jesus as a thief runs to a police station. "Jesus came to his own but his own received him not" (John 1:11).
For you to say that the unsaved just come out and start obeying Jesus is ludicrous. The Bible teaches otherwise. They are wicked, perverse; there is none that doeth good, no not one. There is none that seeks after God. There is none righteous, no not one.
When we consider the unsaved in the light of those Scriptures we see that they do not seek after or obey Christ.

Why do you keep ignoring context. The Holy Spirit had not been sent yet. They had to wait until the Day of Pentecost. That is not so now. When one puts their faith in Christ the immediately receive the Holy Spirit (no obedience required) for it is an instantaneous act. You receive Christ and you are indwelt by the Spirit. They happen at the same time. There is no obedience (or works) in between. If you say there is you believe in a works salvation which is heresy.

He was in the upper room. The verse you are speaking of is John 14:23. It was in chapter 13 that Judas Iscariot had left to betray Jesus. Only Jesus and his eleven loyal followers were left. Which one of these 12 were unsaved, Moriah? Was it Jesus? Was Jesus not saved? Was it Peter? John? James? Who was the person not saved?
Was Jesus speaking about the UNSAVED? NO! he was not. There were no unsaved people in that upper room that he could have been speaking to.

You didn't get this from the Bible? It must be from a secular English dictionary which knows nothing of the Bible. The above is not the definition of the "gospel." From the above definitions it appears you don't know what the gospel is either. That is truly sad.

There is no gospel in John 14:23.
You will find the gospel spelled out for you very clearly in 1Cor.15:1-4.
It is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. You really ought to know that by now.

The lie is all yours. Do you understand the true meaning of this verse:
Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

If you don't, you should understand this one:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The fact is that Jesus taught THEM those things and not US.
They were to go to Jerusalem and wait, and not US. The command was given to them, not us.

If trusting is obeying then you have a religion of works and that is not Christianity. It is heresy. Learn what faith is.
To trust Jesus means you believe him when he says he will give you the Holy Spirit, period, full stop. You added "wen you get his teachings and obey them. That is the definition of a works salvation. First we hear the message, understand it, and then based upon what we have heard accept it by faith. Faith is passive not active in the sense that faith is not a work. It is not something that is done. It is not an intellectual exercise.

Those verses are directed to Christians not the unsaved. It describes OUR faith, telling us that our faith ought to be showing fruit. Some Christian's faith show more fruit than others. God did not set you up as the judge. You may not be able to see the fruit of the faith of some Christians. But God knows what it is.

No, that is not the only thing that counts. One important thing that counts is "rightly dividing the word of truth."
Look at the passage:
Galatians 5:5-6 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Notice all three are mentioned: hope, faith and love.
--The hope of our righteousness comes BY love.
--Likewise faith "working by" love.
This is in opposition to the Judaizers that had infiltrated the regions of Galatia with their poisonous teaching of legalism. The new creature in Christ lived by faith, a faith born out of love and not of works. The verse actually works against you.

I have never called faith dead. Your accusation is false.

Moriah, you teach salvation is by works. You are the one with the false beliefs. And then you attribute to me things that I never said. That is slander and a lie. You said:
" You see, trusting Jesus is obeying. "
--Slandering and lying is not trusting or obeying. It is disobedience. So, do you really trust Jesus?

Not according to the Bible:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The unsaved are saved because:
First they must hear the Word of God through the preaching of the Word of God. And,
Second, the Holy Spirit must work in their hearts using that Word to convict them and bring them to Christ.
Third, they cannot do it on their own.

I have the full assurance (without any examination), that if I should die right now I would go straight to heaven.

Yes, My salvation is based on the work of Jesus; not on my work.
When you stand before Jesus do you think that he is going to accept your work, and that your works will get you into heaven. He will shut the door on you. You will have insulted him, for you will have told him that his work on the cross was not good enough for you.

 

The only reason they had to wait was "because the Day of Pentecost had not yet fully come." That is the only reason. Otherwise the Holy Spirit comes to those who trust Him as Savior without any subsequent obedience. When you say subsequent obedience you believe in a works salvation. Your belief is no different than Islam or Hinduism. It is based on works rather than by grace through faith.

I will never stop teaching that. Salvation is all of Christ. It is by grace through faith and that not of ourselves. It is not of works (obedience). It is not of my merit. I can do nothing to merit eternal life. Jesus paid it all. Who am I to think that I can do anything to work my way into heaven? Should I dare insult Christ and say that my works are just as good as his sacrifice on the cross? Is that what you do Moriah? Do you claim that his blood was not sufficient and you had to help him along in his sacrifice for our sins?

Do you have a problem with the phrase "forgiveness of sins"?
I wasn't sorry for my sins; I needed forgiveness for my sins. Those are two completely different things. When I came to Christ as my Savior, I came on the basis of his shed blood not on the basis of sorrow for sin. He forgave me of my sin. There wasn't any sorrow for sins. There was repentance, not sorrow. You are confused.

Look! You have just wrongly accused me of attacking you when I didn't.
Previous to that you slandered me and lied.
Now you say, "I always obey." That is a lie. For you have sinned and lied for everyone to see right on this post. Thus how can you know for sure that you will go to heaven, unless you believe in OSAS.

If an unsaved person needs to come to Christ, and you tell him to be sorry for their sins as a condition to be saved, then that is a work. It is works based salvation.
--All of the subsequent things you mentioned are works. They are things that every Christian should work at. They are part of the Christian life. I do hope that you work at having a pure Christian home and marriage "free from adultery." That also is a work.

Perhaps. But you are foolish to bring the Jewish religion into this discussion when no one is Jewish. I could say the same thing:
It would be works to offer your first born to the pagan god by throwing him in the river. It would be works by immersing yourself once a year in that same river thinking that those polluted water will wash away your sins. It would be works to put food in front of the idol in order to appease your god. Those are all works too Moriah. Why not bring them up. Why? They belong to a different religion.
However, prayer, reading the Bible, doing good, attending church, witnessing, even being baptized, are all works. And those works will NOT get you to heaven. Works are works no matter what religion they are from--Judaism, Hinduism, or Christianity. One cannot get to heaven by their works.

Those are the works that are mentioned in Eph.2:8,9. You don't get to redefine the words in the Bible. You didn't write the Bible. God did. Why do you think you can redefine what God wrote?

Sorrow for sins is not repentance; it is a work. Judas did the work of being sorry for his sins, and was not saved. Instead he went and did the work of hanging himself. The work of sorrow is also called the work of regret.
Confession of sin is also a work. I used to do it all the time as a Catholic. I went to a confessional and confessed my sins to a priest. He would then give me the work of penance to DO. These are works. It is "paganized Christianity." Confession of sins in the Bible is good, but it is still a work.

Faith is not a work. That is why salvation is by faith and faith alone. It is the free gift of God to be accepted by faith.

 

If you find that my beliefs are the same as a Hindu or Muslim, then I suppose you could call it heresy couldn't you.
IOW, Salvation by works is the same belief as both of the above.
Baptismal regeneration is the same as the Hindus.
I have even heard an extreme view of the sovereignty of God explained no differently than one of important tenets of Islam--fatalism.

There is a false dichotomy drawn by some between meritorious works and other kinds of works. This is also false. Works are works are works. A work is a work. We are not saved by works--ever. If one believes they are saved by works, then no doubt they are not saved. The only work that can save is the work of Christ. He alone can save and no other work will ever save.

Christianity is different. What falls outside the doctrines of orthodox Christianity is usually heresy.

 

This is final, Jesus SAYS ANYONE, and WHOEVER. Now stop going against the Word of God. Stop going against God.

That is man’s RUBBISH wisdom. Who taught you that? You were taught that by the likes of Paul Washer. Tell me, when you were a Catholic child, were you running away from Jesus? I was NOT running away from Jesus as a Catholic child, nor as a Catholic Adult.

When Jesus came to earth, he CAME ONLY FOR THE JEWS.

What you teach is ludicrous. The Bible says God draws us with lovingkindness, and we are drawn by the lovingkindness He offers us, eternal life, that is what the Bible says. The Bible says God is kind to the WICKED AND UNGRATEFUL. For you to say the unsaved cannot just come out and begin to obey Jesus is dumb, for many people are saved that way! They start reading the Bible, they want to be saved, they do what Jesus says, and then they will be saved! THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD. For you to say the unsaved cannot be saved by reading the Bible is past just ignorant to what Jesus says.

You are quoting the scripture about the Jews, about a day that had arrived no one searched for God. Later, they repented, and searched for God. During slavery in Egypt, the Jewish people asked God, if he had forgotten them. How could they do so, if THEY were not wondering where He had disappeared? In the New Testament, when Jesus arrived, people shouted: “Son of David, have mercy on me”. They were looking for the Messiah. In the New Testament a blind man was searching for the Son of God, the prophet’s had said would come.
Paul is explaining that God’s chosen people, to whom the Gentiles were separated from and called unclean; those Jewish people were just as bad as the worst of the Gentiles. Paul is explaining why ALL get to be saved now.

What does Jesus saying wait for the Holy Spirit have to do with Jesus saying they will receive the Holy Spirit if they have his teachings and obey them? YOU MAKE NO SENSE.

Was Jesus speaking about the unsaved when he said those who do not obey do not love him?

Your logic is ill, and your special dictionaries have helped you get further in a hole.

Not everyone is accustomed to doing evil. LOL

We do not even have to have understanding! Proverbs 3:5-6. Abraham obeyed, went, and did not even know where he was going! Hebrews 11:8. Paul obeyed and went where Jesus said for him to go and he was blind! Acts 9:6.

You also seem to forget is that when a person reads, or hears the written Word of God, it is powerful, it is the mystery revealed, and it is the message that saves. Therefore, an UNSAVED person can obey what they read, and be saved.

Trusting is obeying. Jesus tells you to trust in him, if you do so, then that is obeying. I can hardly believe a person has been taught what you believe, and they believe that stuff.

I know what faith is, and I know the dead faith that you teach.

Jesus says he will give the Holy Spirit if you obey his teachings. His teachings are to believe and repent.

You say faith is not an intellectual exercise. Faith is something we do have to exercise.

You see! You DO teach that dead faith saves! NO WAY dead faith saves.

We are to make many judgments. What you say is no argument for the truth.

Paul says it is the only thing that counts, but you say no. You are not arguing with me, you are arguing against Paul.

I have been teaching you that circumcision is not a work anymore that we have to do, so how do you think it goes against me?

You sure do say dead faith saves, for you say we are to do nothing but have faith.

You are being a bad moderator and just plain bad person when you speak to me like that.

You can hear the word while reading it for yourself.

You have not proved that an unsaved person cannot get the Bible, read, obey, and be saved. lol

How do you know? Have you been obeying?

Do you know what this mean, “Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

I suggest you examine yourself. For obeying Jesus is eating the Bread of Life.

 

That is true. No argument.
But that is not true from John 14:23. John 14:23 was written to the saved.

When I was a Catholic I was not saved. And I didn't get saved as a Catholic. The unsaved do not come running to Jesus. The rich young ruler came running to Jesus. Then he ran away from Jesus. The message of the gospel is an offense It is to them that perish foolishness (1Cor.1:18). The unsaved don't want to hear it. If you preach on the street corner people don't run to hear the gospel. They look at you strangely as if you are an odd ball and move on quickly to get away. The gospel is an offense. People don't want to hear it. When Paul preached it they threw him out of the synagogues. They stoned him. They left him for dead.
And you say this is rubbish. I say you haven't read your Bible.
People want to hear the gospel just as much as a thief wants to find a policeman.

If that is true then salvation isn't for you and you are not saved.
Do you know the meaning of John 3:16?

If what you say is true then why don't you take some of God's lovingkindness to Iran, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia, and give to the Muslims there who feast on persecuted Christians, and see if they will just eat up the love, grace, and mercy of God that you feed them.
If God is so kind to the wicked and ungrateful then be a missionary to these nations I have mentioned go to them, be a missionary and prove your own words. I would expect to see great revivals according to your theology.
You say the unsaved will just come out and get saved. You say for me to make that statement is dumb. If it is so dumb prove me wrong be being a missionary to any of those Islamic nations and show me how "the unsaved will just come out and get saved."
THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD, you say. Prove your own words.
Demonstrate that I am ignorant, by going to an Islamic nation and see if there will be a revival. All you have to do is just hand them Bibles. They will read them and be saved. Nations like Pakistan, an Islamic republic with about 160 million Muslims. Go there. Practice your theology of handing out Bibles to Muslims. They just have to read them and they will get saved.

Check chapter one. Paul is writing the letter. He is writing to the saints in Rome. They are believers.

This is all moot. It has nothing to do with the saints at Rome, or what Paul was writing about.

Paul wasn't writing about the coming Messiah either.

In chapter three Paul, still writing to all the saints in Rome, is speaking of all people both Jews and Gentiles. For all are under sin, no one excluded. We learn this from the context:
Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
The context is stated clearly here. Both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin.

You seem to think that you can take any verse in the Bible no matter what the context it is written in, and use it according to your own wishes.
For example, the Bible says, "There is no God."
It does. It says it in Psalm 14:1.
But ignoring the context, "the fool has said in his heart, there is no God..." you can teach it, can't you? You can teach anything you want when you ignore the context. You do that a lot.

The context of John 14:23 is Jesus teaching the disciples:
1. The disciples love him and will obey him.
2. The comforter will come to them.
3. They first must go to Jerusalem and wait for Him there.
4. He will come to them on the Day of Pentecost.

Does that apply to you today? Did you go to Jerusalem and wait for the Day of Pentecost and there receive the Holy Spirit? No. Otherwise you would not be saved. You cannot go back in history.

No, he was in an upper room with only his disciples present.

You still believe that Jesus and Paul preached from the KJV. That's funny. No, rather it is sad.

They are born doing evil. They cannot do good. It is in their nature to do evil, just as it is the nature of the leopard to have spots on his skin. He cannot change. Neither can the Ethiopian change his skin. Neither can man change his sin nature.

Those Scriptures don't change the truth of 1Cor.2:14. An unsaved man cannot understand the spiritual truths of the Word of God.

 

An unsaved man does not have the Spirit of God and therefore cannot understand the Word of God. He is blind to the truth.

Trusting, that is faith, is not obedience. Obedience involves action, work. Faith is not a work.

You can't even give a good definition of faith. When I asked you to define faith you refused.

No he doesn't. Where do you get that teaching from? From a verse taken out of its context I suspect. Just like the Bible says "There is no God," you don't know how to keep Scripture in context.

So faith is a work by your definition. Your salvation is by works. That is no different than Hinduism or Islam. The Bible teaches that salvation is a free gift of God to be received by faith. That is not your teaching.

I never said that. Why do you lie?

And you think you can sit in the place of God and judge the heart of man? You always know who is saved and who is not. You sound like a hyper-Calvinist. You don't even have to tell anyone of Jesus because you already know who is the elect of God. You just have to look at their heart. Did Jesus write "elect" with invisible ink that only you can see on every believer's heart? :laugh:

I mention it to you because it is a non sequitor that you keep bringing up. It has nothing to do with salvation. Salvation "is not of works," but that has nothing to do with circumcision.

We are saved by faith and faith alone. Obedience or works do not save. That is what you teach. It is a false doctrine and a works salvation which is heresy.

For someone who claims sinlessness, I showed you where you have sinned. You didn't like it. That has nothing to do with moderating. It has everything to do with one admitting his own sinfulness.

That is not what the Bible says concerning the unsaved.
It says: For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness but unto us that are saved it is the power of God.
It says: For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God unto salvation.
It says: Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
It does not say: Read the Bible for yourself.

I just did. Read the above.

No, because at the time of my salvation Jesus gave to me the gift of eternal life, and Jesus does not lie.

You prove that you know nothing of context. That verse was spoken to the unsaved; to false teachers.

I know that I am saved, and have eternal life, and that life will never end.
Do you?

 

dhk

So how does one that is not born of the spirit already, understand and believe the Gospel ?

Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

 

The parable teaches one important truth. To be born again the Word of God is essential. John 3:5 teaches the other essential truth: the Holy Spirit is essential. The Holy Spirit works through the Word of God to bring a person to Christ. Both are essential in a person's salvation. God does not work in a vacuum.