Featured The Gospel of YOUR Salvation !

True - without the supernatural work of God - lost man is not inclined toward the Gospel.

But we have this for the supernatural work of God.

"I will DRAW all men unto Me" John 12:32
The Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

God asks "what more could be done that I have not done"??

in Christ,

Bob

 

It is true man cannot in his nature know the spiritual things of God, however, God is in the business of revelation:


Romans 1:18-21

King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Romans 2:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)



Before the Law there was still no excuse not to obey whatever form of revelation God gave one.

After the Law, that did not mean Gentiles could not also come under obedience to God, and in fact be justified (which is not to be equated with salvation in Christ) by accomplishing the works of the Law which was written on their hearts.

We do not equate this revelation to specific revelation, but at the same time we do not deny what Scripture states. It has nothing to do with anything inherent in man's ability, but has to do with God revealing His will to mankind.


God bless.

 

You're forgetting that these people...knew about God.

These are not people ignorant of God.

Now ask yourself...why did they know in the first place? Do you think that God revealed His will to them so he could have an excuse to judge them?

Notice that "what may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."

Where do you see "a child of God?" You are imposing that in the text and that is why you are failing to see my point.

I see Gentile, and this is contrasted with the Jews, who had the Oracles (Word) of God.

Also, Ezekiel 36:22-27 is a promise, and the clearest picture of the New Covenant we have in the Old Testament:


Ezekiel 36:22-27

King James Version (KJV)

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Technically there are five "I Wills" in the Promise.

Often thought of writing a sermon of that title (Five I Wills) and contrasting it with the I wills of Lucifer.

You seem to think I am teaching free will. That is not the case. I am against free will as well as regenerational faith, which is also error.

God does not save people then they have faith, they palce faith in Christ in response to the enlightening the Comforter provides as He convicts the natural man.

It is said to be offered and we see that before and after the Cross and Pentecost:


Romans 10:12-20

King James Version (KJV)

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.


It is found in Scripture, my friend.

God is rich unto all that call Him. He sends His Word to all, but not all obey.

And in this Age...


Hebrews 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


Continued...

 

And that means everyone without exception. You cannot deny it.

Nobody is indwelt until they receive the Gospel.

One is nor regenerated so they can believe, but are born again because they believe.

We cannot deny the part the Word of God, in this Age the Gospel of Christ, has in man's new birth:


1 Peter 1:22-23

King James Version (KJV)

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


James 1:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

This is of the pre-Pentecost Era.

No-one was born again at this time.

And who did Christ minister to?


Matthew 10:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Matthew 15:23-24

King James Version (KJV)

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Would Christ have withheld the Gospel of Christ if that was what He and they were preaching?

The Gospel of the Kingdom had to do with the Millennial Kingdom, which is also seen in the promise of Ezekiel 36.

You call them unsaved, and that is true, but the text says perishing. And they are perishing because they reject the Gospel.

You just need to focus on God's part in this, which is to reveal His will to mankind.

Bingo, though you impose "non-elect" into the passage. The group in view is the entire world with the exception of 8 souls only.

The willful ignorance is on the part of those that do not give thought to God's judgment in the Flood.

No, mankind is not free to choose. He cannot choose to be saved.

Only God can enlighten a man and give him that opportunity.

You actually cancel your point in saying he is free to choose, and I reject free will totally.

That era has nothing to do with regeneration. No-one was born again until after Pentecost. Only in this Age have men been made acceptable to come into God's presence in Heaven. Sins still remained to the account of even men like Abraham and David, Elijah and Moses.

The Eternal indwelling of God began when the Comforter came:


John 14:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

That is true.

That is true also.

That is true.

However, that does not mean men are quickened so they can believe.

You realize you defeat the Sovereignty of God as well as Eternal Security with this well intentioned, but unscriptural position, don't you?

Let me show you why:


2 Peter 2:20-21

King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


The fact is that these people, who in Jude we see are ordained for eternal destruction...knew. They are not ignorant, and like those Paul speaks about in Romans 10 they will have no excuse.

Here is another example of people who willfully reject Christ and the Comforter:


Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


In view here is a contrast of those that rejected God's will under the Law, the Covenant, and those that reject God's will in Christ, the New Covenant.

So if God regenerates men so they might believe, then we have to also advocate loss of salvation.

Thankfully Scripture teaches both of those positions are incorrect.


Continued...

 

Just some advice: post the Scriptures. People are typically lazy and just to get them to read what you have posted is a challenge, lol.

You are correct, though, Christ makes it clear that even Moses was dead:


John 6:49-53

King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Salvation requires faith in the Cross of Christ, His death. It was not until after His death that men could place their faith in Him.

The Comforter convicts, not the Elect, but the world, identified as sinners:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Could you show me where it says that we must be regenerated to believe?

Very true.

Not true.

Again, those charged with not obeying the Gospel have heard the Gospel and willfully rejected it.

If I say you have failed to obey the fratzenkroft (the Law of Freekzlbreft), what would you say? Are you guilty or not?

Ephesians 2:1-5

King James Version (KJV)

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)


Colossians 2:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;




Nothing about being made alive so we can believe.

Nothing that denies there are people who hear, believe, and reject the truth.

It was true in Romans 1 and 2, and true in Romans 10. True in 2 Peter, Hebrews 10, and here...


Hebrews 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

The corollary is that the gospel profited those who had faith in what they heard.

And this is not the Gospel of Christ, but the revealed will of God in that day, which if you look in ch.3 you will see they were unbelievers. They received the will of God, but rejected it.

You're missing the primary point: they had to hear the Gospel to be held guilty of failure to obey.


Continued...

 

That does not nullify the fact that those things are in fact revealed by the Spirit. That's the whole point Paul is making, that the Gospel was a mystery not revealed to men at all, and revealed now to men by the Spirit:


1 Corinthians 2:6-10

King James Version (KJV)

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


Most see the quote as speaking about Heaven, but it is not. It speaks about the Gospel. Had Satan known this knowledge he would have assigned the greatest guard detail man had ever known, that the Lord not so much as stub His toe.

The context is not one which supports the doctrine that men have to be saved to understand and believe. The truth is that every atheist believes, he just fights against that knowledge within him or her.

There is no such thing as a non-believing believer. All believer believe whether they admit it or not. I have spoken with atheists that say they use to, but don't now.

They are lying.

Paul's point is it is not our belief that makes God faithful. He would still be faithful whether anyone believes or not.

He died for the world:


John 1:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

We see this principle in a number of passages, and I am out of time so will just post these:


Romans 5:12-14

King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.



Acts 17:29-31

King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


We see varying degree of punishment according to knowledge here:


2 Peter 2:20-21

King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


God did not hold men accountable for things they were not aware of.

When the Law was given men had no excuse in regards to what was commanded.

So too, with the Gospel, we see over and over that God loved the world, not just the Elect, and that He has in all ages spoken unto men His will.

And that is all the time I have.


God bless.

 

With the exception of those eight souls the rest of humanity received the judgment of God --hence they were indeed non-elect.

BrotherJoseph had said :"Mankind is free to choose according to his nature which is totally evil."

You have ignored his point though you quoted him. He certainly is not an advocate of free-will. Free to choose according to his nature is contrary to the myth of free will.

He made us alive in Christ even we were dead in our transgressions. (Eph.2:5;Col.2:13;Jn.5:21)

 

Brother SavedbyMercy,

Good post. I would also add that contrary to the popular belief of modern day religionists no place in the Bible is the gospel explicitly referred to as an "offer" or that one should "accept Jesus", on the contrary it states Jesus has (past tense) through his sacrifice made His people "accepted". }To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." (Ephesians 1:6). Further, many assert that by their will they must accept Jesus, but Ephesians tells us one being accepted is by God's will, "5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," (Ephesians 1:5). Also, the so called Lord's prayer is nowhere to be found in the scripture's or altar calls to get one saved.

 

Nothing in the text by which one could be dogmatic about that.

Judgment is dependent upon man's response to revelation provided to them by God. I presented the principle of varying degrees of accountability for man, where the judgment, for example, of one who rejected Moses' Law (the Covenant of Law) would not be punished as severely as those rejecting the New Covenant. The Old Testament rejecter will be held accountable for rejecting the revelation provided them, in the case of the Children of Israel in the Wilderness, it was a very simple gospel: God has redeemed you out of temporal bondage, and will lead you into rest (the promised land). They yearned for the fleshly comforts of "home," and were not filled with the Spirit, which is not surprising seeing they desired to have leeks.

That's a joke, by the way.

We see this here as well:


Matthew 12:39-42

King James Version (KJV)

39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


Not only does this show the varying degrees of judgment, it shows the progressive nature of revelation.


Matthew 11:16-24

King James Version (KJV)

16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.


Now here is a benefit from understanding the concept of Hell and Hades as mentioned in the other thread: in view here is the physical death of these people for their sin. Hades in in view concerning their death, and repentance (which arises from specific revelation, here shown to be that which Christ revealed to the audience)would have, according to Christ our Lord...saved them from physical death, which was the penalty for sin in Pre-Pentecost Ages.

Varying degrees of punishment. Defining properly the punishment.

All of these things have to be considered.

And the Biblical truth is...he is not.

The natural man has inclination for only evil, not righteousness.

He is depraved in his natural state, remember?

He cannot choose to be righteous, to seek after God, to reconcile himself to God...in his natural state. He is 100% dependent on the intervention of God, and it is God that enlightens him to his condition and the remedy for that condition.

Do you see now how free will is actually imposed into his view without it being recognized?

I addressed his point in detail just as I am addressing yours.

Indirectly he is, and you, in supporting what he has said, are too.

I don't say that to upset you, offend you, or carry on hostilities you have brought to every exchange we have had.

I tell you that because it is true.

Just consider what the implication of man having free will of any kind means.

Here it is again, in your own words:

Does the leopard choose to have spots?

In order for their to be a choice in this context man must also have the option to choose to be righteous.

He does not. Left to his own devices man will sin. That is not free will, that is bondage to sin, which only Christ can remedy.

Beyond that, we also look at the fact that man has no life in him apart from eating of Christ flesh and drinking of His blood, which is a euphemism for trusting in Christ's death.

It is free will, just packaged up in different wrapping.

Again, this is like saying only the saved will be saved.

I am not denying only the Elect are the People of God, but what we have to do is recognize the love of God and see it as expressed to the world in the revelation He has always given to man.

I have again shown the progressive nature of revelation and the distinctions drawn between those different Economies. It cannot be denied that Christ makes it clear that what He revealed in His day was not revealed to those in the Old Testament.

If you would just place your focus on the Doctrine you would see that this is true. We cannot change the Word of Christ, and must bring our Theology under conformity with His teachings.


God bless.

 

Brother Darrell,

You left off the last part of the verse, it says, "...the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:18), thus if you interpret the "all men" in this verse as every human being, we see the effect of the free gift is "unto justification", thus you have every human being justified with your interpretation, thus your interpretation cannot be correct.

Again, if you interpret the "all men" to mean every human being you have another problem because Romans 5:16 states that those who receive the free gift, receive, "free gift is of many offences unto justification.", thus you would have every human being becoming justified, thus again your interpretation does not fit the context.

Also, you speak of God loving every human being, but how does that reconcile with "but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth" (Psalm 11:5) and "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity" (Psalm 5:5)?


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

You state, "He is not willing that any should perish", I believe you are quoting from 2 Peter 3:9, "9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." Peter states his audience that the Lord is not slack concerning his promise is "toward us", therefore he must be referring not willing that "any" of the elect perish as he was talking "toward us" not "toward every human being". Also, if you take the "any" to mean every human being, it means his will is not that any should perish, but we know n the end some do perish, thus His will would not be done, but how would that be consistent with "of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"? How could he be working it after the counsel of his own will if he wills none should perish, but some do?

Does God love those he doesn't chastise?

Hebrews chapter 10 is not talking about someone who is unsaved rejecting Christ. The passage in context states, "26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"


Notice verse 27, the person who commits this act possesses a "certain fearful looking for of of judgment", thus this person cannot be one who has become unsaved seeing it is distinctly declared in the Scriptures of the unsaved, "The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes" (Psalm 36:1). Also, notice verse 30 of the chapter in Hebrews says, "30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people." Therefore the person in consideration in this passage is said to be one of "His people" not one who is not his child.


So what is the passage referring to if it is not talking about an unsaved person rejecting Christ? The verse right before Hebrews 10:26, tells us "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; ..." (Hebrews 10:25). This it is when a child of God church member willfully ceases the attendance of the assembly of believers (i.e. church). The very next verse says, " For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth..."As the forsaking the assembling of ourselves together is named in the immediate context, this particular sin as an example of sinning willfully. The Christian who absents himself from the assembling of the church, either does it willfully, if he absents himself by choice, having the ability and not the disposition, he sins willfully; and if he be a child of God, it is "after he has received a knowledge of the truth" as he is a member of the church.

He who has received a knowledge of the truth, knows his God too well to believe that his willful transgressions will go unchastised. He knows full well that God will judge his people, but it is in this life, not in Hell afterwards for the same book of Hebrews explicitly tells us, "7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." (Hebrews 12:7-8)


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

If the "revelation of God" or the gospel is the means God uses to make a child of God born again (I take it from what you have said in your posts you believe in what is called "Gospel regeneration", but if I am mistaken please let me know), wouldn't it be logical to conclude everyone would have an identical response to the gospel (either all will believe or all will not believe) because every human being has the same nature inherited from Adam, but why do some respond to the gospel differently, one believing and having faith and one not believing? Why did you for example choose to believe the gospel, but for arguments sake, perhaps your neighbor didn't?

It seems to me the law of cause and effect would come into play if your theory of gospel regeneration is true, in other words, if the cause of regeneration is the gospel being preached to mankind, and the effect is one placing faith in the gospel, thus becoming born again, we would observe the same cause and effect in every human being if they have identical natures prior to the new birth because identical causes applied to identical things will produce the same effect. The reason for some believing and some not believing is because regeneration precedes believing in the gospel, thus we see why some believe and some do not. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:18). This verse clearly states the gospel is the "power of God" to those who ARE (PRESENT TENSE) saved, it does not say it is the "power of God" to those who "will be saved" as you would have to insert for gospel regeneration to be true.

Also, that the unsaved are incapable to repent and believe in the gospel is apparent as Paul declared, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14), but if you believe in gospel regeneration, then you believe the natural man can receive the things of God.


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

On the contrary my stance is scriptural. I had said that with the exception of those eight souls --the rest of humanity received the judgment of God --hence they were indeed non-elect."

Luke 17:27-29

"People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. It was the same in the days of Lot...But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven an d destroyed them all."

How much plainer can it be stated? Aside from those eight souls in the Great Flood, everyone else received the judgment of God. They were most certainly not among the elect --just like the residents of Sodom and the nearby vicinity.

Hebrews 11:7

"By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith."

Hear and yield to the Word of God.

I fully agree, as does BrotherJoseph who had said:"Mankind is free to choose according to his nature which is totally evil."

I have had no memory-lapse regarding that. You clearly cannot understand plain language. If one has a nature that is totally evil --it means the same thing as "depraved in his natural state."

I agree. There is no argument.

No, I do not. There is no hint of libertarian free-will in his stance or mine.

Agreed. You are preaching to the choir here DC.

Of course not. According to one's nature is a concept that you can't comprehend. A lion, if given a choice between lettuce in one bowl and fresh meat in the other will always choose the latter. Lions are not vegetarians. It is their nature to go for the meat --every single time.

Likewise an unregenerate person will always be in bondage to sin --there is no libertarian free-will.

 

Brother Darrell,

Your response above was for my request for you to give a passage that explicitly uses the word "offer" in reference to the gospel, but the passage you gave me in the above reply does not contain this word. This word is not used in connection with the gospel in the entire Bible, that is why you couldn't supply a passage that contains it.

Brother Darrell,

Your response above was for my request for you to give a passage that explicitly uses the word "accept" in reference to accepting Jesus, but the passage you gave me in the above reply does not contain this word. Though this is a popular word used by modern day evangelicals, again like the word "offer" you will not find it in the entire Bible as it is a false doctrine.

Paul said he was saved before the world began (II Tim 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (I Tim 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (I Tim 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Rom 13:11).

Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. And this is the key to understanding our wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ.

Since God saves sinners in stages, or phases, we must not limit salvation to just one idea or one event at one time. Paul saw his own salvation occurring in five phases.

It used to be called the Ordo Salutis of salvation, which means the order of salvation; but it is not studied or preached much any more. We live in the perilous times of the last days, when men no longer want sound doctrine preached to them (II Tim 3:1 - 4:4). They prefer fables over truth, so the true doctrine of salvation has been almost lost from the earth.

Everyone talks about "getting saved," but no one can explain it from the Bible. There are "invitations" and "decisions" and "methods" for salvation, but none of these words or ideas are from the Bible.

Paul clearly taught five phases of salvation.

The ETERNAL PHASE is God's plan and choice from eternity to allow sin into the world and to save His elect from it. Since He is eternal and sovereign, God planned in eternity all that He does in time. There are no surprises to God. He planned to allow sin, so that He could display His glorious grace in saving His elect from it and displaying His power and wrath on the rest. This phase of being saved is found in 2 Timothy 1: 9, "9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

The LEGAL PHASE is God's work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in Another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. This phase of Jesus saving his people is seen in 1 Timothy 1:15, "15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" and again in Matthew 1:21, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins"

The VITAL PHASE is God's application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ's death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives. This phase of being saved is seen in Titus 3:5 "5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost"

The PRACTICAL PHASE is our response to His salvation. He sends His Spirit into our hearts, and we cry "Abba, Father." With new hearts from regeneration, we then hear the gospel, and we believe it. We want to be baptized to show Him our love. This being saved is by faith in believing the gospel, thus in our experience, we come to know that Jesus already legally saved us on Calvary through the atonement. This being saved is found in 1 Timothy 4:16, " 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee" Also, please pay special attention to this verse, "...our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Timothy 1:10). Notice it says the gospel only brings "to light" life and immortality, thus these things were already there in a regenerated child of God, but the gospel sheds light to his children as to how life and immortality got there-through Christ's death and resurrection.

The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future. It is mentioned in Romans 13: 11, "11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed"

Brother Joe