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Featured Charismatic Errors Listed

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by John of Japan, Sep 24, 2012.

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  1. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    No, YOu missed the point...but I am use to it!
     
    #181 awaken, Oct 2, 2012
  2. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    In order to fully understand what it means to have a "thorn," it's helpful to examine every place where this concept appears in the Bible. Here are the remaining places where people seem to have had "thorns":

    Numbers 33:55: "'But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live."

    Joshua 23:13: "then you may be sure that the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations before you. Instead, they will become snares and traps for you, whips on your backs and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land, which the LORD your God has given you."

    Judges 2:2: "and you shall not make a covenant with the people of this land, but you shall break down their altars.' Yet you have disobeyed me. Why have you done this?"
    Judges 2:3: "Now therefore I tell you that I will not drive them out before you; they will be thorns [several translations of the Bible indicate that the word "thorns" is implied here] in your sides and their gods will be a snare to you."

    Ezekiel 28:24: "No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD."

    Notice that in every description of a "thorn," it's always used to describe people who are bringing suffering upon other people. Paul specifically said that his "thorn" was a demon which was bringing suffering upon him everywhere he went, which is exactly the same way that a "thorn" is used everywhere else in Scripture. It has nothing to do with sickness or disease, and it has nothing to do with healing or miracles "dying out" in the first century.
     
    #182 awaken, Oct 2, 2012
  3. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Your analysis is shallow. You missed:

    (1) The Josh 2:3 reference is in italics in the KJV, meaning it was not in the original. The Young's Literal translates, "adversaries."

    (2) You are left with only two references, hardly decisive. The Numbers and Ezekiel references are both to the whole nation of Israel, hardly the same metaphor as Paul is using.

    (3) All of your references are OT. So it is the Hebrew language vs. Greek language, 1400 BC-593 BC vs. 55 AD, ancient Jewish culture vs. 1st century Greek/Roman/Jewish Paul's culture. You are really stretching it to make the metaphor mean the same in all cultures and times of the Bible. I practice historical-grammatical hermeneutics. Whatever your hermeneutic is, it really overemphasizes your primary principle of "comparing Scripture with Scripture." Would you interpret the parables of Christ from the parables of Isaiah?

    No, Paul did not specifically say it was a demon. Pay attention to the text itself, not what you want it to believe. What he said was "a messenger from Satan." It is translated correctly as "a messenger" and not "angel." Here is it once again a metaphor for the sickness God allowed Satan to afflilct Paul with (just as God allowed Satan to afflict Job with boils).

    You know, this is typical Charismatic doctrine, seeing demons everywhere. But usually Charismatics claim all sicknesses are caused by demons. So I'm somewhat surprised here that you miss the chance to call Paul's thorn a sickness. :smilewinkgrin:

    But you know also, you did not answer my point about Gal. 4 where Paul had a physical problem that was not healed. My argument certainly does not depend on Paul's thorn in the flesh alone.
     
    #183 John of Japan, Oct 2, 2012
  4. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Well let me address Gal. and more...

    Sometimes people use Galatians 6:11 to demonstrate that Paul had an eye condition which was never healed. However, when Paul referred to "how large a letter" (KJV) or "what large letters" (NIV) in Galatians 6:11, we really can't say for sure what he meant. It's possible that he wrote in large letters for emphasis, such as when we use bold letters for emphasis. It's also possible that his eyes were getting weak with age, so he needed to write in large letters. Another possibility is that he simply had poor handwriting. Or perhaps he was referring to the length of his letter to the Galatians. Galatians 6:11 doesn't prove that Paul had an eye condition which was never healed.

    Notice that Paul said he had a "bodily ailment" (which is sometimes assumed to be an eye problem) when he first visited Galatia:
    Galatians 4:13-15 (AMP): "you know that it was on account of a bodily ailment that [I remained and] preached the Gospel to you the first time. And [yet], although my physical condition was [such] a trial to you, you did not regard it with contempt ... For I bear witness that you would have torn out your own eyes and have given them to me [to replace mine], if that were possible."
    The NIV uses the word "illness" in this passage, but the Greek word literally means "feebleness (of body or mind); by implication malady; moral frailty: - disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness." (Strong's Greek Dictionary). What was this infirmity of the flesh or this bodily ailment? Acts 14:19-20 tells us that when Paul and Barnabas were in Lystra, the crowd stoned Paul and left him for dead. The next day, Paul and Barnabas went to Derbe, which was in the southern part of Galatia (according to Eerdman's Atlas of the Bible):
    Acts 14:19-20: "Then some Jews came from Antioch and Iconium and won the crowd over. They stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, thinking he was dead. But after the disciples had gathered around him, he got up and went back into the city. The next day he and Barnabas left for Derbe."
    This infirmity from the stoning was the reason why Paul preached the Gospel in Galatia for the first time (Galatians 4:13-15). Consider that Paul both preached and practiced healing, and not once did he ever tell anyone to patiently endure their sicknesses, nor did he ever say that he himself was patiently enduring any infirmity. If Paul's eyes were wounded during the stoning, they apparently were healed because he never listed any eye problems among the sufferings which he had received for the sake of the Gospel.

    Again, the New Testament does not teach that an "Age of Miracles" will come to an end in the first century.

    I do not believe that all sickness is caused by demons...so I must be different than most charismatics!
    I do believe people get sick and die! But I also believe that healing is available! Like I said before on this subject I have more questions than answers but the scriptures you list are not proof!
     
    #184 awaken, Oct 3, 2012
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  5. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    You've actually done a good analysis here, though there are several errors in your post. But I'll not press my point because (1) you've actually proved that you don't believe as most Charismatics do, that all sickness that is not cured is because of a lack of faith, due to your admittance that Paul's eyesight might be weak (something Charismatic "healers" think they can cure, and (2) you as much as admit that Paul was not healed from his physical weakness, whatever it was, and Charismatic healers believe everything can be healed. So if you do agree with the Charismatics in these points, you've not said so (which does not mean much). (3) I want to get on to another important error of the Charismatics before the thread ends.
    I believe that miracles are still done--by prayer--and I've seen some in my life. I've never taught that some "age of miracles" ended in the 1st century, but I am a cessationist.
    I'm glad to read this. I don't think you are as radical as most Charismatics are, but frankly I wonder since even when you disagree with them, you refuse to oppose any error of the Charismatics, and you defend every single Charismatic mentioned.
    I could certainly prove it that all sickness is not to be cured, but I'm sure never to your mind. And as I said, I want to get on to something else. So many Charismatic errors and so little space to list them! :type:
     
    #185 John of Japan, Oct 3, 2012
  6. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    What is the difference in praying and believing God still works through the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. It is still God doing and performing the miracles.
    I am not going to oppose something I know very little about! AGAIN ...if believing in the manifestation of the HOly Spirit is charismatic..then I am! THe other stuff I do not know that much about!

    You would have to be blind to say that all sickness is cured. People die everyday from sickness. My own mother died this year with Cancer! But if we depended on what we see ALL THE TIME...then where would faith come in!
    Not all are saved either...but we still preach salvation through Jesus! These answers I do not have! But I do believe that God still heals through the Holy Spirit because Christ died for it to be and He poured it out on the Day of Pentecost. I have witnessed my self a miraculous healing by the laying on of hands!
     
    #186 awaken, Oct 3, 2012
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    remember to study it in contex, as the OT promises were NOT to us today under the new Covenant!

    Also, remember that healings were thru and done by Jesus as part of the prophecy concerning the messiah that was to come, the Apsotles verified Him thru them, but not for today in same sense!

    God can still chose to heal, but based upon his sovereingty!
     
    #187 Yeshua1, Oct 3, 2012
  8. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    I have no problem with God healing upon his sovereingty! But I will not deny ANY of the ways he choses to do it!

    Study out the word "sozo" ....our salvation includes much more than just forgiveness of sins.
    "Sozo" is also translated as "healed" in these passages...Mark 5:23
    "Sozo" is also applies to deliverance from demons...Luke 8:36.
    "Sozo" in Acts 14:9 shows that one has to be delievered of demons (sometimes) in order to be healed.
    "Sozo" in James 5:15 is a classic example of Christ's saving power manifesting in our lives both as healing and forgiveness of sins.
    In Luke 6:9 Jesus wasn't just talking about forgiveness of sins. He meant the healing of the body.
    Some more scriptures with "Sozo" used is ...Matt. 9:22; Mark 5:28, 6:56; Luke 8:50.

    Salvation doesn't only mean forgiveness of sins, but includes healing of the body, deliverance etc. If we do not consider all the verses concerning "sozo" we will misrepresent what the Lord did. Forgiveness of sins is the centerpiece, and I'm not minimizing it at all. However, at the same time Christ died to purchase our redemption from sin, He also freed us from sickness, disease, depression etc.
     
    #188 awaken, Oct 3, 2012
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Peter addressed that very issue when he quoted isaiah and by the stribes of christ we were all SPIRITUALLY healed from our sins, NOT physically held right here and now in same fasion, as God can chose to heal directly, but we also know ALL will be heale din the resurrection to come!
     
    #189 Yeshua1, Oct 3, 2012
  10. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    How are we healed from out sins? We are forgiven from our sins...but we still sin!
     
    #190 awaken, Oct 3, 2012
  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    If you don't know after all that discussion with DHK, there is no way I'm going to be able to tell you.
    Amazing that after all of your years as a Christian that you don't know enough about the Lord Jesus Christ to oppose those who say they are incarnate just like He is.
    Another Charismatic error is that physical healing is in the atonement. Don't have time to refute this right now, and I want to concentrate on the Charismatic error of false prophecy.
     
    #191 John of Japan, Oct 3, 2012
  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    An awful Charismatic error is the belief that we have foretelling prophets today who try to add revelation to the Scriptures. This happens all the time with them. Just recently I got a letter at the church from a Korean Charismatic group predicting soon judgement. This is not the first time this has happened. Back in 1992 a group from Korea called Taberah World Mission spent much money in sending literature around Japan saying that the Rapture was going to come that year. It didn't of course: http://articles.philly.com/1992-10-10/news/25998566_1_rapture-sect-members-ina

    The problem would be solved for the Charismatics if they would simply stick to Biblical standards for prophets, but they do not. In particular, the 100% accuracy standard of Deut. 18:21-22 is ignored, sometimes willfully: "21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

    Leading Charismatic prophet Bob Jones (no relation to the BJU Jones family) has said, "I figure if I hit two thirds of it, I'm doing pretty good" (Charismatic Chaos, John MacArthur, p. 79). Charismatic apologist John White in his book Some Said it Thundered gives details about how to know a false prophet, but, "Amazingly, in a five-page discussion of how to discern false prophets, White never once speaks of accuracy or truthfulness as a test! In fact, he explicitly states that he believes those are not valid texts of the prophet's credentials" (MacArthur, 81; emphasis by author).

    "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar" (Prov. 30:6).

    This could be a thread all by itself, and maybe it should be. But I have to run.
     
    #192 John of Japan, Oct 3, 2012
  13. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    Are you addressing prophets of today or or manifestation of the HOly Spirit through prophecy? I believe they are different!
     
    #193 awaken, Oct 3, 2012
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  14. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I'm addressing false prophets in the Charismatic movement, whatever their theology may be. They may have the right theology in your view or they may have the wrong theology, it doesn't matter. If they are one time wrong in their prophecy they are false prophets. A true prophet of God would be on target 100% of the time.

    Furthermore, a true prophet of God would not be adding to the revelation of Scripture. The fundamental doctrine of revelation teaches us that revelation is done for now. When the churches of Jesus Christ accepted the canon of Scriptures through the leadership of the Holy Spirit, that was it--the canon was done. No one has a right now to add to that revelation.
     
    #194 John of Japan, Oct 4, 2012
  15. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    So you do believe there are prophets today? Good and false? I agree that a true prophet will be on target 100% of the time!

    I disagree with the manifestation of the Holy Spirit through prophecy is done away with. I do not think true prophecy adds to or takes away from the word of God. There is a difference in a prophet and the manifestation of the Holy Spirit through prophecy, even though both are by the Holy Spirit. Not all are called to be a prophet...but all are encouraged to prophesy.

    Maybe you need to clarify how you think God and Jesus Christ communicate with us via the gift of HOly Spirit that has been born inside us?

    AGAIN AS FAR AS FALSE PROPHETS ...I AGREE...100% true or they are false!
     
    #195 awaken, Oct 4, 2012
  16. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I'm glad we finally agree on something. :flower:

    Going by Eph. 4:11 I believe there is a prophetic function today, but it is forth-telling, not foretelling, and it never is revelatory. That is, it never reveals anything new about God and His nature and plan. How does it function? It simply calls out from the already-inspired Word of God what he would have His people and lost people know. I believe my grandfather the evangelist was being a prophet in this sense when he called on churches to get back to soul-winning and revival, and worked to bring integrity back to mass evangelism in America.
     
    #196 John of Japan, Oct 4, 2012
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Would you agree that the OFFICE of both Apostle/prophet was closed off by God?

    That NONE have ANY additional reveltions from God for today?

    That one can have the "gift" to clearly teach and proclaim the already wriiten prophetic word, but thats it?
     
    #197 Yeshua1, Oct 4, 2012
  18. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    I have never come across a prophet or apostle...but I do not see in scriptures where it says that they will cease. Do you?
     
    #198 awaken, Oct 4, 2012
  19. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    The Biblical prophet I've already discussed. The Biblical apostle was simply a church planting missionary, as a careful study of Acts reveals. History also shows that is what the apostles did after Pentecost--the 1st chapter of Foxe's Book of Martyrs is out of date on this, but is a start.

    But we should be extremely careful of what the Charismatics call apostles and prophets. Their doctrine is what I've referred to, the manifest sons of God doctrine. They believe that end times prophets and apostles are here to usher in the 2nd coming, and have corresponding authority over believers, leading to terrible abuse. The "Shepherding" movement of the 1970s grew out of this, but there are many more recent examples.

    John MacArthur writes, "Some charismatic leaders insist they are heirs to apostolic authority, and they are eager to put their authority into practice. That desire often leads to appalling abuses. Perhaps the most notorious episode developed in the 1970s, coming out of a Fort Lauderdale-based group of charismatic leaders. Known as the 'Shepherding' or 'Discipling' movement, this group...concluded that Scripture demands absolute submission to one's spiritual leaders. Predictably, many leaders used that teaching to maintain a cruel and tyrannical influence over their people. They insisted that their people surrender every decision to them--even questions about marriage, personal finance, and one's career. Unscrupulous men posing as spiritual leaders took advantage of their people's gullibility. Many gained a cult-like dominance over their people's lives" (op cit, 147).

    Run as fast as you can from charismatic "prophets" and "apostles."
     
    #199 John of Japan, Oct 5, 2012
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  20. awaken

    awaken Active Member

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    But there are still those called to plant churches..when did it move from apostle to prophet?

    What many are confused about is the office of prophet and the manifestation of prophecy through the Holy Spirit. Not all are called to be a prophet...but we should all desire prophecy. If prophesying made a person a prophet, then Paul would be contradicting himself.
    Example: A rich man has money. Most of us have at least some money, even if it's only a few cents, but that does not make us rich. So..a prophet would of course prophecy, but a person who prophesies wouldn't necessarily be a prophet.
    I prophet is called by God just like a preacher, teacher, evangalist etc.

    The manifestation "prophecy" has no revelation in it. Rather, it speaks unto men for their edifecation, exhortation, and comfort..it is to edify the Church.

    Just because someone misuses this or that there is false out there does not prove scripturally that they have been done away with! Show a scripture where they have been done away with! Not just that there are false out there!

    I wish you would stick to scripture to prove your stand!
    I am not saying everything out there is true! But I would like to stick to scriptures to prove and examine if it is so are not!
     
    #200 awaken, Oct 5, 2012
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