Featured Total Spiritual Inability

Calling those who believe in the DoG "ignorant" is a lie as well as unkind.

 

This writer violates his own post directions:laugh:

He starts off using 2 pet3:9 out of context...making the text void.Anyone who understands the passage knows this is not what is taught as has been shown many times here.....

But this writer has bigger issues that need attention:laugh:

Even Arminians are weeping over this statement;

In his false idea, man saves or does not save himself....it is all of man.

rom9- answers this

This article is sad

no good news here....this is an abomination:

No one will be rushing out to buy this systematic theology any time soon:laugh:

 

Geetings Iconoclast....

The material I posted is obviously disturbing in regards to your chosen man made system.

Just doing some seed planting. :wavey:

Merry Chrismas to you and yours!

 

Please explain your view (in context of John 6:44), namely how the passage is interpreted with “draw” being a metaphor? In other words, explain how you see God drawing people.

“No one who can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him”
I really don’t know any other way to put it. Jesus said, nobody can come to me in faith (the context of the chapter is coming to Christ) unless God the Father draws him in. No matter How you want to chop up the word draw you still have to have the Father do it or nobody will believe.
Also, what is the difference, in your view, between saying, “All who are drawn come” vs “Everyone who comes were drawn”? Please explain your point a little deeper, or explain how you view this?

I believe I did a lot more work in the passage you did to understand what it actually does say. My goal is to harmonize it with all Scripture because there are no contradictions. I don’t know what you mean by your accusation on point 1, nor do I understand your interpretation methods, so I will let that comment go. Your point 2, is another accusation on me for ignoring passages, that does no good. point 3, ok, but you have a lot of work to do in Scripture to understand human hearts and the sin issue, not to mention that you now have a big issue. That is that if their hearts are truly seeking God and they end up in hell because they were not saved or helped by God. Doesn’t God have open arms to those who are truly seeking Him? Wont those who seek find? Why can the Jews in your Mathew passage lead them to hell and God remains silent in contradiction to other promises.

I replied to your post on John 6. Please tell me how you interpret Romans 3:11 now (In context).

I believe the Bible teaches that a man apart from the Holy Spirit’s help cannot understand. The degrees of hardness of heart and God’s hardening is a good topic to discuss when talking about total depravity. This is nearing a rabbit trail, but I do not think all spiritually depraved people are the worst they can be, thus some are more hardened than others and in deeper degrees of sin. When we start talking about God hardening hearts we have to think about the “how” because if it is allowing them to remain or fall deeper into sin rather than giving them knowledge (Romans 1 theme?) then that is supporting my view, but if God actually goes into a seeking persons heart and hardens it so now they cant seek then that is your view.

God softening hearts. Lets talk briefly together shall we. What exactly is that? We cant fully grasp the mystery but my definition is God opening a heart or preparing it/changing it. It is God working in the heart of a man to lead them to Christ. Another way to look at it is God drawing them or God teaching them internally. Irresistable grace is God’s effectual work within, that is the idea. God works in a depraved heart causing it to willingly come to Christ. Its not a topic to breeze over for sure, but is quite beautiful to ponder on.

Mathew 13:13, “This is why I speak in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.” Verse 16, “Blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.”
There was a hardening going on but refer back to our conversation above as to how that works. Here is further evidence for my view above that God leaves people in their sin as a means to hardening certain peoples. How does He do it, how does He harden? I am not trying to box God in here, but it seems here is how: Mathew 13:11, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.”
The disciples (besides Judas see the end of John 6) were given the internal understanding that they didn’t even understand. It was the link that caused them to endure when everyone was leaving Jesus hard teachings.

I agree, but there are certain passages to build our theology on and other less clear passages that we simply cannot build on. An example:
Someone says I believe Jesus is God because He walked on water (which is in Scripture) another says I believe Jesus is God because of John 8:58 where He says “I AM”. Which passage is the stronger to build a theology?

Please read Romans 9 again and comment on the context of the passage rather than quoting a verse and running away from it with preconceived notions. I will gladly discuss it with you if you do.

 

Please don’t take my response as a personal attack. I do think you have an agenda and at times these agendas we get can be quite blinding. I fight really hard against my flesh to not have agendas on the board, but it is no easy battle. As for your argument, its not very deep, I’d challenge you to do a little more observation work and ask yourself some questions. There are clear passages that come obvious, but this one isn’t obviously making the claims your saying it does. I have revealed in previous posting that there are clear challenges.

The point is that the first 3 seeds are not good soil (good hearts), they did not receive the gospel in a heart that produced fruit. If you do not produce fruit you will be cut down and thrown into fire right? So the first 3 proved to be false converts who appeared to be seeking God but in their hearts were not. This is true for all who appear to seek God. We look at seekers and take them all seriously because we simply don’t know their hearts. Yet, if they are true they are proving to have a good soil prepared by God (seed number 4) and produce lasting good fruit.

We actually have not really dealt with anything properly. Thus far I have not seen you deal with anything fairly. Making shallow statements on passages doesn’t go very far for me, this is why I asked you to elaborate on many occasions.
Oh my, I cant tell you how frustrating it is when I get pinned with a view. I do not believe that people are dragged under compulsion. In my previous post I explained this. God’s drawing work does not tie up demons and force love, but rather it changes hearts and causes willingness, depth of heart , and understanding in the soul.

I think you are trying to expose Calvinism which is fine if you really want to seek to understand Scripture. I can’t judge your motives, but your words seem to carry the mission. I appreciate the thorough responses, but I think a better understanding of Calvinism and more thorough dealing with Scripture would be helpful in our discussion. Instead of saying, “this is why Calvinism is false..” say “This does no seem consisted, Zach, please elaborate on your view so I can better understand. I will work on doing the same. If you don’t understand me and I don’t understand you we will talk in circles and get nowhere. I think it is nothing less than a miracle for either of us to change our minds, but hopefully others can read these posts and make good judgments (by God’s grace ).

 

Enjoy your family and the time off from work....be careful AIC....there are much better arminians out there than this guy...he is badly confused.

I do appeaciate that you attempted to offer something to consider:thumbsup::wavey:

 

Is this supposed to be a serious question? You cannot tell the difference between "all who come were drawn" versus "all who were drawn come"?

All who come were drawn= This means that 100% of those that came were drawn. Yes, this means no one can come unless they were drawn. This is scriptural

All who were drawn come= This means 100% of those persons who were drawn come. This is NOT scriptural, many persons are drawn who do not come. Read Matthew 22, in this parable Jesus compares his Father to a king who sent out servants to call many people to come to his son's wedding. They were drawn, but many refused to come and so the king was angry and burned their city.

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

All these men were drawn, they were called and bidden by the Father himself through his servants to come to the wedding, but all these people refused to come.

So not all who are drawn come.

Now, the king sent servants again to call others, this represents the Gentiles. They came when they were called.

Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


Again, in verse 8 we are reminded that those who were first drawn or called did not come. So all that are drawn do not necessarily come.

Then the king sent his servants to call any person they could find to come to the wedding. No one was excluded, all were called whether good or bad. This refutes Limited Atonement.

Note one man came without a wedding garment. The garment represents the righteousness imputed to a person who believes on Christ. This man tried to come of himself, not of faith in Jesus, and was cast out. This refutes Total Depravity and shows that a natural man can seek God. His error was that he tried to save himself through his own righteousness and not that righteousness imputed to those who believe on Jesus.

And finally note who the elect or chosen are, the elect or chosen are all those who obey and come in faith to Jesus.

So, were all who came drawn? YES. Did all who were drawn come? NO.

I hope this clears up this important difference for you.

 

It is silly and disingenuous to say such things. Just because things are so clear-cut and dried in the mind of Van does not make them the truth above all truths.

 

Jeremiah 31:3
The LORD has appeared of old to me, saying: “Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are Spirit, and they are life.

John 14:24
He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

John 10:30
I and My Father are one.”

John 6:68
But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

Me following a crowd does not mean that i am drawn by the Father.

The words of Jesus Christ is the net and if we do not listen and learn from the words of the Father the words of Spirit and life we will not be drawn by lovingkindness. There is so much more to learn from God and His word. I pray that we do not come content to live as an infant in the 1600's or 1800's but to continue to grow and mature by listening and learning from Him.

 

Winman,

My question was serious, thanks for clarifying your view. See my response to van below regarding john 6.

 

To say that everyone who comes to jesus was drawn by the Father is true, but not the full teaching. I ask you questions to clarify your view because i try not to assume and I want to see how you work with the context of the passage rather than just issolating verses.

John 6 not only tells us that everyone who comes to christ was drawn by the Father but also that all who are drawn indeed come. This is not a general drawing to all like you see it. If we only look at john 6:44 with our preconceived notions on calvinism we can say its a general call that all who come have, but watch my interpretation and give it some thought:

John 6:22-71

V22-26 this is the next day after jesus fed thousands. People began looking for him to get more food to eat. Use him for bread: bad motive

V27 jesus rebuked them for bad motives and told them to seek eternal food in Himself.

V28-29. Therefore they asked how to do it, and jesus said to believe in Himself.

V30-31 they ask jesus what works He was going to do to prove who He was and gave the example of Moses getting bread from heaven(forgetting that he miraculously fed over 5000 the previous day?)

V32-33 at this point think, literally the day before God gave bread from heaven like moses, the exact sign these people seeking with wrong motives are asking for using moses as an example. Kind of odd and blind right? So jesus says (knowing He gave them food) that he is the point, the true bread given from God out of heaven to eat (to trust in faith to eternal life).

V34 they ask always for it not revealinv what they want clearly. Is it bread or jesus?

Now van pay attention from this point on. Remember what has happened so far.

V35- jesus literally tells them to come to Him and believe into eternal life. A free offer to all who choose to believe.

V36- BUT jesus says, you have seen me, even miraculously, and dont get it, you still dont believe. Now think Van, what is their problem? Yes its unbelief but there is an issue, they see jesus but dont see Him spiritually. What do they need?

V37- (this is big) they need the Father to save them from darkness. Jesus says that all the father gives him will come and never be cast out. This is jesus answer to the issue jesus pointed out in the previous verse.

V38-39 jesus has come to do the Fathers will, that is to save those who THE FATHER has GIVEN him to save. Dont forget verse 37 showing that all who are given are saved. Therefore jesus is will is to come to those who are given to him.

V40 everyone who believes will get eternal life according to the Fathers will.

Stop for a moment Van and rethink all that has happened and how jesus is talking to these bad motived people. Are they getting it? We dont know yet, but he has told them they are not getting it and need the Father to have given them to the Son. Lets go on

v41-43 Later (unknown time) jesus catches them grumbling about His sayings previously. They have continued unbelief. They still dont get it, hard hearted, blind, etc.

V 44-45 jesus says that nobody can come to Him unless drawn by the Father and this is the Fathers internal teaching and work. I connect this with Jesus previous statements in v 36 and 37 showing that the Father must give people to the Son and when they are given, another way of saying chosen, they always come. If not given or chosen unbelief and hardness remains as we see in 41-43. Therefore in vs 44 they need to have their unbelief conquered by God's drawing work. That is the means of God choosing those who are saved, all who are given come and are raised on the last day (v38-39). In some way this drawing is done by a special internal teaching of God that compells them effectually. "All who have heard and learned from the Father come to me". We know many hear and learn from jesus but not all come. This must be more specific in verse 45 bc jesus says all who hear from the Father come.

V46-51 are all restatements by jesus

V52 they still are trapped in unbelief. They dont get his teaching.

V53 jesus says drink and eat of His flesh obviously speaking of faith. If they dont they will die in sin.

V54-59 Whoever trusts in Jesus has life and will not lose it.

Van pay attention bc we will Jesus recap here

V60 the disciples (probably not limited to the 12 yet) were grumbling bc of the difficulty in His teaching

V61-62 Jesus knew they were grumbling so he asked if they were offended. He then asked what they would think if they saw Him in Heaven? In other words he is seeing unbelief and questioning in their hearts due to difficulty.

V63-65 (This is a big recap point, pay attention Van) Jesus points to the fact that their unbelief is a black hole they are in. He shows His reliance on the Spirit to give them life. This is a deeper explanation of verses 36-39 and 44-45. Its not ultimately in their hearts to get internal understanding but rather the Spirit through the words of Christ. V64 jesus says some do not believe. Why? Because they chose not to? Well in a sense they are choosing not to, but that is not how jesus sees it. He sees their unbelief as a result of God not giving them internal help but leaving them to themselves when they hear Jesus. V65 therefore jesus says this is why I told you that you cant come to me unless granted by the Father.

66-71 jesus after feeding over 5,000 and performing that great sign is left with only the 11 and Judas. Jesus wasnt surprised. He said:

So Jesus said to the Twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?" Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil." (John 67-70 ESV)

The 11 remaing knew who jesus was bc it had been given them by the Father above. They knew internally and would not leave even if the teaching was impossible nor were they compelled more or less by miracles. Its as if they unconditionally saw and knew who Jesus was. Why? Although they had ups and downs they were believing bc they were chosen. See verses 36-39, 44-45, 63-65

That is why I believe verse 44 is not limited to "all who come were drawn." Jesus clearly doesnt use it that generally nor does it fit the exact context which is clearly "all who are drawn come"

When you say "all who were drawn come" you are presupposing that it is ultimately in the hands of lost souls who are given some level of help by the Spirit. You put the ultimate choice in the hands of people and their rejection. I admit that people do reject and are responsible but that isnt jesus point in the passage at hand.

His point is that the reason they are not believing is bc they are not being drawn and taught by the Spirit of God which always leads to life (36-39, 44-45, 63-65).

 

there is a general calling from God towards all men, in the sense that He desires all to repent and come to Christ, but there is a specific calling to only the elect, who will ALL come to christ and be saved!

 

I disagree with your analogy of this chapter, especially the part I bolded. Jesus was always very clear that it was a person's responsibility to hear God and believe.

Mar 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

Read the parables of Jesus. Many times his disciples did not understand the parables any better than any other person. But there was one MAJOR difference, the disciples DESIRED to know what Jesus meant, and they would follow after him and ask him to explain the parables.

Mar 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

Mar 7:17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.

Many times the disciples did not understand Jesus's parables. The difference is that they wanted to know and asked Jesus to explain them to them.

Jesus did not cast his pearls before swine. He told everyone the gospel, and to those who desired to hear and learn more he told more. You have to WANT IT.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Ask. Seek, Knock

If you don't know, it is your own fault.

 

If God desired for all to be saved, He would have provided a means for all to be saved.
If He only provided a means for the elect to be saved, then He only desires that they be saved.

 

Yes, Yeshua1 is renowned for his logic.



And his logic is only surpassed by his skill with spelling.