Featured Total depravity and Genesis 4:7

"Cain might be regenerate"...good choice of words.

But like the covenants of works, grace and redemption, the Bible is silent on the issue of Cain's ultimate stauts as a member of the elect. So we really can't be sure but Cain's actions as stated in the Bible would be consistant with those who are not of the elect. But still, we don't know, Cain could have had a deathbed conversion. Jehovah in his wisedom did not give us that detail.

But Jehaovah did include the conversation he had with Cain in the Bible. It's there for a reason.


“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

whoever is not a synonym for "members of the elect". While it might be fact, the concept of "limited attonement" as defined by the all knowing hard core 5 pointers among us troubles me.

 

Bravo!! DHK...Bravo!!! and a hearty AMEN to that!! Could not possibly have said it better myself!:applause:

Bro.Greg

 

Please note the last statement in my post.
They are to be taken literally, as the Spirit of God intended them to be, unless specifically directed otherwise.

The words you have used indicate that those portions of Scripture are to be taken as "figures of speech," which again are not necessarily allegories.

An allegory
"is a story, poem or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning; typically a moral or political one." (google)
"the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths and generalizations about human existence." (Merriam-Webster)

A simile, metaphor, shadow, etc., are not allegories. Pilgrim's Progress is the most well known allegory. A simple figure of speech is not an allegory. Please learn the English language and its grammar before commenting on it.

 

call me anything you want, O great Webdog, full of wisdom and grace. but here's what the Bible said:

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised , hath God chosen , yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are :
1 Corinthians 1:26-28

My logic ? it seems to me YOU were the one who started that train of thought. That God will not call anyone He has not equipped to answer that call to repentance.

How do you know the intents of God on somebody ? lol. you guys keep trying to seat in the throne of God, condemning people to perdition. How can you be sure God had no intention of regenerating Cain ?

Well, God is speaking to YOU now, O great one. He said these:

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

1 Cor. 10:6 - Now, these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

Your theology demands that the redemption of God be available to all mankind, every Tom, Dick and Jane on the planet, and that His word is for all mankind, for every Tom, Dick and Jane on the planet.
God says otherwise.
His word was for HIS Tom, Dick and Jane on the planet, and only them.
So, whose theology needs realigning, O great and wise Webdog ?

 

What can we learn from Genesis 4:7?

Yahweh said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why has the expression of your face fallen? 7 If you do well, won’t it be lifted up? If you don’t do well, sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it.” 8 Cain said to Abel, his brother, “Let’s go into the field.” While they were in the field, Cain rose up against Abel, his brother, and killed him.

God said to Cain that he was able to overrule his temptation to sin. Thus an unregenerate person is not suffering from total spiritual inability. This is the simple truth, and a sound hermeneutic is if the plain reading makes sense, seek no other sense. What would be unsound would be to allow a man-made doctrine overrule scripture.

So here are the lessons from Genesis 4:7.

1) Unregenerate men have some limited spiritual ability, but often they choose to follow their predisposed nature, and sin.

2) Calvinism claims this, and all scripture which teaches Calvinism is wrong, does not actually mean what it says.

 

I just wanted to make an ancillary point here about John 3:16, because you quote it.

The proper translation is not "whoever" or "whosoever." The proper translation is "all the ones believing." John 3:16, specifically, makes no mention of how one comes to believe. So, in essence, you are correct that "whoever is not a synonym for 'members of the elect.'"

Having said that, though, the Passive verbs in the whole of John 3 up until verse 16 make it quite clear that we cannot and do not become born again of our own choosing. We are born again by God.

The Archangel

 

For that matter how could Cain have a conversation with the one and only Holy God?
MB

 

Again, HOW does anyone know here on this board that Cain is unregenerate, or remained unregenerate throughout his life ?
The question originally posed, taken from Webdog's own post, is WHY SHOULD AN OMNISCIENT GOD DEMAND OBEDIENCE AND REPENTANCE, OR THAT SIN BE OVERCOME, FROM ANYONE WHEN HE (GOD) HIMSELF KNOWS THE MAN IS TOTALLY INCAPABLE OF THEM WITHOUT HIS HELP UNLESS HE HAS ENABLED HIM FIRST ?

We will go round and round this tree and come back where we started scratching our behinds until we accept the fact that Scripture teaches man is totally spotted with sin and unable, like the leopard, to do anything to change his spots.

 

my explanation comes from my intellect and understanding. you referring to it as a fruit fly is you saying I, the speaker, am a fruit fly. My reading comprehension is as good as anyone's.
As is the norm, when confronted with YOUR inconsistencies, you resort to unchristlike language.
the feeling is mutual.

 

What do you mean, “unless specifically directed otherwise”? Are you saying there are no other types, similes, allegories, etc. in the scriptures other than what we’re told that are such? With at least 100 ‘similarities’ between Joseph and Christ in the scripture, show me the scripture reference to Joseph as the most detailed type of Christ that is to be found in the Book. Christ didn’t teach it, Paul didn’t teach it, neither did Peter or John, where did it originate? And there are many many many other such wonderful marvelous magnificent types, similes, allegories to be found that we’re not “specifically directed” that are such.

‘The new is in the old concealed, the old is in the new revealed’, - origin Augustine. I cherish that saying, but of course DHK considers Augustine a heretic also, right?

Oh baloney, you’re only making the simple complex. The fact is you made the brash statement “before Origen no one held to an allegorical method of the interpretation of Scriptures”, and that’s absolutely false. Paul’s forte was interpreting the ‘new from the old’ by types, shadow, figure, and allegory. And I don’t care whether you call it parables, riddles, dark sayings, or similes, Christ was teaching allegorically.

 

Perhaps there are similarities between Joseph and Christ. But it is precisely your method of interpretation that allows people like William Branham to teach that original sin is intercourse between Eve and serpent. If allegory is your method then they are as right in their interpretation as much as you are.
IOW, you can make the Bible say anything you want. Christ died for the aliens in outer space. We are just representatives of them. And as the J.W.'s teach Christ is really Michael the Archangel. The Mormons say he came from another planet, don't they? Thus his death was for aliens not us. Sounds good to me! It's all allegory isn't it? Read into it anything you want; tell any story you want. You are no better than the Charismatic telling tales of how they go to heaven, then hell and back again.

Augustine believed in baptismal regeneration.
He believed in purgatory.
Those are heresies. Or, do you believe in them as orthodox doctrines?
Yes, he is a heretic.

How can it be false when it is well known that Origen introduced the allegorical method of interpreting the Bible.
Note my words carefully. It is a method of interpretation. That is not to say there are not allegories in the Bible.

No, you are wrong. I will give you an example.
Paul uses the OT as examples for our learning. They are not allegories.
In 1Cor.10, Paul gives a number of OT examples, the first being about Israel crossing through the Red Sea.
He then gives the application:

1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
--He gives history and application. There is no allegory.

He continues. They committed fornication and tempted the Lord.
Paul applies it:
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
--History first, and then application; no allegory.

The allegorical METHOD of interpreting the Bible did not come into existence until the time of Origen. Even the RCC considered Origen a heretic.

 

Yea, but of course the type doesn't fit your criteria of being "specifically directed" so it's probably just 'illegitimate spiritualization or allegorization.'

JOSEPH AS A TYPE OF CHRIST

There is nothing bad (sinful) mentioned about Joseph or Jesus in scripture.

Both were loved by their father

Both rejected by their brothers

Both Joseph and Christ were unjustly tried, Joseph was unjustly charged with trying to rape Potiphar's wife (Gen 39:1-20).

Both were unjustly sold see Gen 37:28 and Mat 26:15.

Both suffered; Joseph in prison and Jesus on the cross.

Both were later crowned with glory and honour (Gen 41:39-45, Heb 2:9).

Both delivered men from death

Genesis 37:3 Now Israel loved Joseph
Matthew 3:17 "This is my Son, the Beloved, with whom I am well pleased."

Genesis 37:4 his brothers, they hated him
John 15:25 They hated me without a cause.

Genesis 37:8 His brothers said to him, "Are you indeed to reign over us?... So they hated him even more because of his dreams and his words.
Luke 19:14 We do not want this man to rule over us.

Genesis 37:11 So his brothers were jealous of him,
Mark 15:10 it was out of jealousy that the chief priests had handed him over.

Genesis 37:18 They saw him from a distance, and before he came near to them, they conspired to kill him. Matthew 27:1 the chief priests and the elders of the people conferred together against Jesus in order to bring about his death.

Genesis 37:23 So when Joseph came to his brothers, they stripped him of his robe
Matthew 27:28 They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him

Genesis 37:28 sold him to the Ishmaelites for twenty pieces of silver.
Matthew 26:15 They paid him thirty pieces of silver.

Genesis 39:4 Joseph found favor in his sight ...he made him overseer of his house and put him in charge of all that he had.
John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has placed all things in his hands.

Genesis 40:2-3 Pharaoh was angry with his two officers ... and he put them ... in the prison where Joseph was confined.
Luke 23:32 Two others also, who were criminals, were led away to be put to death with him.

Genesis 40:13 Within three days Pharaoh will lift up your head and restore you to your office (to one, a message of life)
Luke 23:43 He replied, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Genesis 40:15 I have done nothing that they should have put me into the dungeon."
Hebrews 4:15 one who in every respect has been tested as we are, yet without sin.

Genesis 41:46 Joseph was thirty years old when he entered the service of Pharaoh
Luke 3:23 Jesus was about thirty years old when he began his work.

Genesis 41:55 Pharaoh said ... "Go to Joseph; what he says to you, do."
John 2:5 His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

Genesis 45:1 Joseph made himself known to his brothers.
Luke 24:31 Then their eyes were opened, and they recognized him

Genesis 45:7 God sent me before you to preserve for you a remnant on earth, and to keep alive for you many survivors.
1 John 4:9 God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him.

Genesis 45:12 And now your eyes ... see that it is my own mouth that speaks to you.
Luke 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet; see that it is I myself.

Genesis 45:18 Take your father and your households and come to me
Matthew 11:28 Come to me, all you that are weary ... and I will give you rest.

Genesis 45:26-28 26 And they told him, "Joseph is still alive! ... Israel said, "Enough! My son Joseph is still alive. I must go and see him before I die."
Luke 24:5 Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here, but has risen.

Genesis 46:30 Then Israel said to Joseph, "Now let me die, since I have seen your face, that you are still alive."
Luke 2:29 "Now Lord, Thou dost let Thy bond-servant depart in peace, according to Thy work; For my eyes have seen Thy salvation,

Genesis 47:23 Then Joseph said to the people, ...I have this day bought you
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 you are not your own? For you were bought with a price”


Pink is even more thorough:
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pi...genesis_40.htm

 

The type around the OP passage doesn't fit your criteria of being "specifically directed" either, so it's probably just 'illegitimate spiritualization or allegorization' also.

Pink again:

"Now all these things happened unto them for types (margin); and they are written for our admonition" (1 Cor. 10:11).

“Abel is a striking type of Christ, and his murder by Cain was a remarkable foreshadowment of our Lord’s rejection and crucifixion by the Jews. At least thirty-five points of resemblance can be traced here between type and antitype. In considering Abel as a type of our Lord, it is to be noted that, like Isaac, offered up on the altar and the ram caught in a thicket, which afterwards took his place in death, we have here a double type also. Both Abel and the offering which he brought pointed to the Lord Jesus.”

36 similarities itemized:

Abel was a shepherd (Gen. 4:2)
Our Lord is a "shepherd"—the Good Shepherd—

It was as a shepherd that Abel presented his offering unto God
It was as the Shepherd He presented His offering to God (John 10:11)

Though giving no cause for it, he was hated by his brother. Cain was jealous of his brother. i
Though giving no cause for it, Christ was hated by His brethren according to the flesh (John 15:25).

It was out of "envy" that Cain slew he slew Abel.
It was through "envy" that Christ was delivered up to be crucified (Matthew 27:18).

Abel then did not die a natural death.
Our Lord did not die a natural death. He was "slain" by wicked hands (Acts 2:23).

Abel met with a violent end at the hand of his own brother.
Christ was crucified by "The House of Israel" (Acts 2:36), His own brethren according to the flesh.

After his death God declared that Abel’s blood "cried" unto Him, and severe punishment was meted out upon his murderer.
After His death our Lord’s murderers were severely punished by God (Mark 12:9)

Abel presented an offering "unto God" (Heb. 11:4).
The Lord Jesus presented an offering "to God" (Eph. 5:2).

That the offering which Abel presented was "the firstlings of his flock": in other words, a "lamb."
The offering Christ presented was Himself—a "Lamb" (1 Pet. 1:19).

In bringing his offering "by faith," Abel honored and magnified the Will and Word of the Lord.
In presenting Himself as an offering He honored and magnified the Will and Word of God (Heb. 10:7-9).

The offering which Abel presented is described as an "excellent" one (Heb. 11:4).
The offering Christ presented was an "excellent" one—it was a "sweet smelling savor" (Eph. 5:2).

God had "respect unto Abel and to his offering": in other words, He accepted them.
God accepted Christ's offering: the proof of this is seen in the fact that He is now seated at God’s right hand (Heb. 10:12).

In the presentation of his offering Abel "obtained witness that he was righteous" (Heb. 11:4).
While presenting Himself on the Cross as an offering to God, Christ "obtained witness that He was righteous "—the centurion crying, "Certainly this was a righteous man" (Luke 23:47).

After Abel had presented his offering, God publicly "testified" His acceptance of it.
God publicly testified His acceptance of Christ’s offering by raising Him from the dead (Acts 2:32).

Abel’s offering still "speaks" to God—"By it he being dead yet speaketh."
Christ’s offering now "speaks" to God (Heb. 12:24).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just as Abel and his offering are, at every point, a wonderful type of Christ and His offering, so Cain, who slew Abel, prefigures the Jews, who crucified their Messiah.

Cain was "a tiller of the ground" (Gen. 4:2). Thus the first thing told us about him connects him with the land.
The first thing which is conspicuous about the Jews was that they were the people of a land the promised land, the Holy Land (Gen. 13:15).

In refusing to bring the required lamb, Cain rejected the offering which God’s grace had provided.
In refusing the Lamb of God (John 1:11) the Jews rejected the offering which God’s grace had provided.

In his self-righteousness Cain brought an offering of his own choosing.
The apostle Paul declares that the Jews were "ignorant of God’s righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness" (Rom. 10:3).

The offering he brought was the product of his own labors.
The Jews rested upon their own obedience to God’s Law (Rom. 9:21).

This offering was rejected by God.
But God had no respect to the Jew's works (Acts 13:39).

It was Cain’s God-given privilege to rule over his brother (Gen. 4:7).
Had Israel walked in God’s statutes they would have been the head of the nations (Deut. 28:13).

Cain forfeited his God-given privilege to rule over his brother.
But through sin the Jews forfeited the place and privilege (Isa. 9:14).

Being envious of Abel, Cain wickedly slew him.
It was the Jews who crucified the Christ of God (Acts 5:30).

God charged Cain with his crime.
God charged the Jews with their crime (Acts 2:22, 23).

God told Cain that Abel’s blood cried for vengeance.
Christ’s blood is now judicially resting "upon" the Jews (Matthew 27:25).

Because of the shedding of his brother’s blood, God’s curse fell upon Cain.
Because of the crucifixion of their Messiah, God’s curse fell upon Israel (Jer. 24:9)

Part of Cain's punishment consisted in the ground becoming barren to him (Gen. 4:12).
Part of the curse which God threatened of old to bring upon Israel was the barrenness of their land—"desolate" (Lev. 26:34, 35).

Further, Cain was to be a fugitive and vagabond in the earth.
The Jew has been an age-long wanderer in the earth (Deut. 28:65).

Cain acknowledged that his punishment was greater than he could bear.
Israel will yet acknowledge their punishment is greater than they can bear (Zech.12:10).

Because of his sin, he was "driven out" (Gen. 4:14).
Forty years after the Crucifixion, Israel was driven out of Palestine.

Because of his sin, he was hidden from God’s face.
Since the Crucifiction, God’s face has been hid from the Jews. (Hosea 1:9).

Every man’s hand was now against Cain (Gen. 4:14).
For nigh 2,000 years, almost every man’s hand has been against the Jew (Deut. 28:66).

God set a mark upon him (Gen. 4:15).
A mark of identification has been placed upon the Jew so that he can be recognized anywhere.

God declared that He would visit with a sevenfold vengeance those who slew Cain.
God’s special curse has always rested on those who have cursed Israel (Gen. 12:3).

Cain left the land and went and dwelt in a city (Gen. 4:17).
For the most part, even to this day, the Jews continue to congregate in large cities.

“Upon what ground can we account for this remarkable agreement between type and antitype? The only possible explanation lies in the supernatural inspiration of the Old Testament Scriptures. The Holy Spirit "moved" the writer of Genesis. Only He who knew the end from the beginning could have foreshadowed so accurately and minutely that which came to pass thousands of years afterwards. Prophecy, either in direct utterance or in symbolic type, is the Divine autograph upon the sacred page. May God continue to strengthen our faith in the divinity, the authority and the absolute sufficiency of the Holy Oracles.”

 

I see, God makes us make the right decision

 

Abel was both a Shepherd and a prophet.
He came and brought a sacrifice to the Lord. Why? Because he was a sinner (like Christ???)
He needed to do so on a regular basis (like Christ???)
He needed to make an atonement for HIS OWN sin (like Christ???)

You read Pink, copy Pink, swallow this man's theology. Why not study the Bible instead? Throw away that book! The Bible is much better.

As I said before, William Branham, a cult leader, used the same method of interpretation and concluded that Eve had s-x with the Serpent, and that is what is defined as original sin. Is that what you believe also. It is more along the lines of your methodology of interpreting the Bible.

 

I agree with you on this one thing pinoybaptist, your intellect is something quite beautiful. Your understanding is outstanding!

 

With the possible exception of the Biblical teaching that all have sinned and fall short of the glory. But of course you already knew that. Perhaps you think that is allegory?

 

No, I wouldn't put it that way.

I would say that God makes the unwilling willing.

On the other hand, it is a grammatical fact that John 3:16 says "all the ones believing," not "whosoever." It is also a grammatical fact the the "born again" verb in John 3:3 and following is Passive which, by definition, means that the subject cannot and does not act upon himself or herself.

The over-arching problem is that some refuse to see that the Bible affirms both the Sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man. Some deny one aspect all together; some put the emphasis on the secondary aspect. But, make no mistake, both are affirmed--but the affirmation of both is scripturally weighted in such a way that it is God who first acts and man responds.

The Archangel

 

Then Arch, where would you say Spurgeon stood in all this?