Featured Seeking truth about "tongues"...

As I have posted several times this is what I believe Paul was referring to...


Paul seems to contradict himself in this passage. First he says that tongues are a "sign" for unbelievers, but then he says that if unbelievers see people speaking in tongues, the unbelievers will think that the believers are out of their minds.

It turns out that "uninterpreted tongues" have been used in Israel's history as a sign to the unbelieving Israelites that God's judgment had come upon them. Paul was quoting a prophecy from Isaiah 28:11-12:

"Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest"; and, "This is the place of repose"-- but they would not listen." (Isaiah 28:11-12)
This prophecy was fulfilled when the Assyrian army swooped down upon Israel speaking a foreign language (an uninterpreted tongue), carrying Israel off into captivity. Paul used an example from Israel's history to show that uninterpreted tongues are sometimes used as a "sign" for unbelievers that judgment has come upon them.

Then Paul pointed out that if an unbeliever enters a church where Christians seem to have lost their minds, the unbeliever wouldn't see this as a sign of impending judgment. This is why Paul said that prophecy is much more beneficial during a church service.

 

THe unlearned is a referrence to prophesy, not tongues!

I explained my view on this in a previous post.

Unlearned could be that they do not understand spiritual things. Gentiles spoke in tongues!

The day of Pentecost was the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, Jesus calls it being baptized in the Holy Ghost in Acts 1:5. Peter tells them what they see and hear is the Spirit being poured out in Acts 2:17. What did they see and hear? THey saw and heard them speaking in tongues!
I will address the rest later...

 

The only contradiction is manufactured in your own mind as that is what your mind requires to justify your false teaching!

Paul is plain and clear! He states clearly that tongues are not for BELIEVERS but for a specific class of unbelievers. Anyone can look at the verse quoted by Paul from Isaiah and see the context is Messianic in regard to his first coming and that it is explicitly stating in the clearest possible language that tongues are a sign to "THIS PEOPLE" which have Jerusalem as its capital, the capital that can be destroyed and was destroyed because as Isaiah correctly predicts "yet they would not hear" making them UNBELIEVERS!

He specifically and clearly denies that tongues are for the "unlearned"! Unlearned in what? In prophetic prophesy - Old Testament Scriptures as in the very prophet he cites! The "unlearned" are GENTILE unbelievers.


Therefore, Tongues are not a sign to beleivers.
Therefore, Tongues are not for "unlearned" unbelievers - Gentiles
Therefore, Tonguse are for the Jews as a nation.

I know you don't like this but NOTHING you can say can change it! You can pervert, twist, lie and repudaite the scriptures but they end of saying the same thing regardless.

Perverting and twisting scripture again! So you are claiming that Paul is so stupid that when he tells the Corinthians to grow up and be mature (v. 20) and then he does the most immature thing in the world, quote an Old Testament prophecy that has no possible application to his present discussion because it has already been fulfilled.

You don't understand that telescopic principle behind prophecies. Isaiahs 28 could not possibly have been completely fulfilled by the Assryians as the Messiah clearly and explicitly predicted in Isa. 28:16 did not come before or immediately after the Assyrian invasion.

You have got to be kidding!?! No, the "unlearned" are called "unlearned" for a specific reason! Gentiles have not been exposed to Isaiah or the OT Scriptures. They are "unlearned" but the Jews cannot be called "unlearned" as they are very "learned" from birth in exposure to the OT scriptures. The gentile would think you are crazy because they have no point of reference for what you are doing.

Indeed, you have the gall to completely invalidate Pau's quotation of Isaiah's prediction and explanation of tongues by saying it has already been fulfilled when any sunday school child can clearly see that Isiah 28:12,16 could not have possibly been fulfilled before or during the Assyrian invasion.

Is there no end of your vain jangling of God's Word??????

 

Every Scripture you have taken out of context. I have shown you this before; I will do it again:

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
--The verse is a rebuke. God understands other languages, but the congregation doesn't. Therefore don't do it for it is just a big confusing mystery to them, which causes chaos. Don't speak in other languages in the church. This is what this verse is addressed to. You cannot practice your unbiblical esisgeses here and make it say it is promoting a private prayer language.
You do err not knowing the scriptures neither the power of God.

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
--This is another rebuke.
God understands the language. The gift, a gift of languages could be understood be the speaker, and you cannot disprove that. So one can edify himself, but not the church. It was chaotic mysteries and not edifying as prophesying was. Therefore don't do it. Don't speak in tongues in public--the only place where tongues was permitted. Don't do it without an interpreter, and thus don't do it all, for it was a sign to the unbelieving Jew, and thus confined to the first century.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
If your understanding is unfruitful don't do it. Anything that is unfruitful is condemned. There is nothing to be gained in this verse. To find anything good from here is ludicrous. Paul isn't condoning anything that you do.

1 Corinthians 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
--Paul uses an example. In another translation it starts out "For example."
It is an illustration, a hypothetical. Furthermore it is still confined to the local church. You can't rip it out of one or both of these contexts. Praying in another language is never taken out of the context of the local church. It is not given for the selfish private use of the believer.

1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
--Speaking to yourself. Do you do that?
--Speaking to God is not praying to God. Do you know how to do that?
--Keeping silence in the church. Do you know how to do that?
--Don't speak in tongues at all, whether at home or in church, if there is no interpreter! Do you know how to do that?
Do you follow these commands?
If you would you would never speak again in tongues or another language.
You have never spoken in another language for you can't identify the language you speak in. It is all gibberish, something that was widely known in paganism, but only started in Christianity in 1905. Why are you practicing a pagan practice, knowing only among the Christian community since 1905? Please answer that.

I have shown you both Biblically and historically where you are wrong.

 

In other words you are flatly calling the Prophet Isaiah a liar as he says the sign is about the promised "rest" (v. 12) which he explicitly identifies as Christ in verse 16! Have you ever read Isaiah 53??? Have you ever read Romans 10:16 where Paul explicitly says that Isaiah was preaching the gospel of Christ. Can you find a more clear presentation of the gospel from a prospective view than Isaiah 53??????????

The "fruit" of all "tongue" speakers today is the fruit of false doctrines galore.

 

Yeah, not "silent" prayer!!! Those on Pentecost were speaking to "this people" and it was God speaking through them in their own "native tongues wherein" they were born.

On Pentecost it was used exactly how Isaiah describe unto the very specific people Isaiah described ("this people") for the very express reason Isaiah prophesied to confirm their Messiah had arrived in the person of Jesus Christ form Nazereth (Acts 2:22).

 

No it is not, it is specifically referring to those hearing tongues in the church:

23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

And I just demonstrated from Scriptures that your "view" is not Paul's view or the Biblical "view' but is a direct contradiction to the clear teaching of God's Word just as your previous statement above is a direct contradiction to God's Word.

He just cited the prophet Isaiah for the purpose of tongues to "THIS PEOPLE" which anyone can see from the context of Isaiah refers to the Jews the most
"learned" people on the face of the earth in regard to OT Scriptures. From birth they are taught the scriptures. He is not talking about "unlearned" in paganism, pagan literature!!!! He is referring to the scriptures. He is speaking of the only other class opposite to "this people" which are Gentiles! So simple and yet the "spirit" leading you cannot discern spiritual things.

No he does not! Acts 2:17 separates the cause from the consequences. They both heard and saw the consequences but they never saw the cause as it occurred in a room separated from the crowds.

What they see and hear are the apostles going forth "filled" with the Spirit speaking in tongues which they understood and realized was a miracle as they were all Galileans speaking never schooled in such dialects.

Again, of course in GENERAL all signs, miracles and wonders were bestowed at Pentecost but that does not contradict the fact that the scriptures clearly and explicitly teach that "tongues" were given as a sign to the Jewish nation to confirm Jesus as the Messiah and that does not change the contextual fact that is precisely unto whom tongues were ministered unto on Pentecost for that very purpose.

 

I see you are still plagiarizing. It needs to stop if you want to be an honest person.

 

This is exactly why I asked you to re-read 1 Cor from the point of view of one of the members. You don't recognize verse 4 for what it actually says-just what you want it to say.

 

For 5 years, I had a pastor-and-wife combo, who had all 9 of the spiritual power gifts between them.
I was overwhelmed at times with the incredible love that was manifested through her
as she ministered in the gifts of healing and such.

Didn't Paul mention something about faith working through love?
.

 

interesting claim.

Now for the Bible.

Acts -

Acts 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tonguesthe wonderful works of God.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[offensive remarks deleted]

 

Well, I guess we baptists have the wrong god as you seem to be omnicient because you feel you can assert that all Baptists in general don't know anything, or at least all Baptists in general don't rise to your level of knowledge and spirituality. That very assertion advertises your complete and utter spiriual immaturity.

 

If you have something intelligent and meaningful to add, then by all means....

 

Well I differ on what the rest is! In context of Is. THIS in verse 12 is referring back to verse 11.
"For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, THIS is the rest wherewith ye man cause the weary to rest: and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear."

 

THe ones speaking in tongues was not speaking to the crowd. Because tongues is talking to God! Yes, the crowd heard them in their own language, but Peter is the one that evangalized!

 

Well, again...we will have to disagree! Because I do not see the ones at Pentecost speaking to the people! THey were speaking to God..magnifying/praising God! Just like Acts 10! No unbelieving Jews were around in Acts 10.
Tongues was a sign of the Holy Spirit being poured out! It was a sign of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

So you do not believe the "rest" and "refreshing" is found in believing in the Word of God about their promised Messiah although it was the repeated "doctrine" of all the prophets (v. 9) and thus "precept upon precept, here a little and there a little (v. 10). You don't believe this promised rest preached by all the prophets was "the word of the Lord" that had been given unto them "precept upon precept, line upon line, here a littel, and there a little (v. 13).

You cannot see that in verse 14 Isaiah repeats the same promise AGAIN or the "word of the Lord" about their coming Messiah and beleiving on him versus a covenant of death by rejection of him?

Do you see how verses 11-12 are placed between verses 9-10 and verse 13 which all speak about the same thing?

9 ¶ Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 ¶ Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

This text says nothing about Pentecost. Nothing about the Promise of the Spirit. Only that tongues from other people will tell them the same thing that all the prophets had told them with one difference - HE HAS COME and that is precisely what Peter told them on the day of Pentecosts and it was tongues that confirmed this message and got their attention.

The problem is that you have made up your mind in spite of the facts and there is no basis to discuss it any more with you.

 

You are reading into Scripture that which is not there.
You cannot make an argument from silence.

Here is what the verse says:
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

The spoke forth, or proclaimed the wonderful works of God. There was no praise, no prayer, etc. It was a proclamation of the wonderful WORKS of God. What works has God done.
Then Christ had just died and risen again. What do you say at Easter? "He is risen!" "He has ascended." "He is coming again" Look at the miracles he did--He raised the dead! He raised Lazarus! "He raised my son......" These would be the wonderful works of God--more like testimonies both of God and of what the Lord had done for them over the past 40 days and past three years.
There is no prayer here.

In Acts 10 there were Jews present.
First there were Jews that Peter took with them. They were unbelieving in the sense that they did not believe that salvation had come to the Gentiles. Peter himself had to be convinced in a vision, and even then he was not totally convinced.
Secondly, this was a public event. Cornelius was a centurion, but thought by most to be a Jewish Proselyte, a Gentile that had converted to Judaism. He was a devout man accepted by the Jewish community. It doesn't say other Jews were not present. The focus is on the gospel going out to the Gentiles.

Acts 10:27 And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
--The many gathered are the many in Cornelius's house which no doubt are gentiles.

Acts 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
--Notice in Peter's rehearsal of the events to the church, he leaves out the speaking in tongues completely for it is not an important part of the entire episode. What was important was that the gospel went forth to the Gentiles; they received it and were saved; the Holy Spirit came upon then (that is they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit). Speaking in tongues was totally irrelevant.

 

Originally Posted by BobRyan
interesting claim.

Now for the Bible.

Acts -

Acts 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tonguesthe wonderful works of God.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Takes a lot of assumption and tradition to say that in spite of the text saying otherwise.

1Cor 14:22-23 - Tongues is specifically for a sign to unbelievers not believers.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?


It is specifically for evangelism.

And Paul makes the point in 1Cor 14:15-16 that if tongues is not used in such a way as to effectively reach the unbeliever - then it is an abuse of the gift of tongues.

in Christ,

Bob