Featured The strong case against a pre-tribulation rapture

DHK, you and Bob Ryan in my opinion are time-setters just the same.

When Christ will have come again He will not come yet again -- a third time. Because He won't come again to have anything to do with sin again, but with the glorification of his Elect--his Saved--FOREVER.

Again you appear to be no different than a SDA, DHK.

 

Quote:
Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Verse 1
Touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (υπερ της παρουσιας του Κυριου ̔ημων̓ Ιησου Χριστου — huper tēs parousias tou Kuriou ‛hēmōn' Iēsou Christou). For ερωτωμεν — erōtōmen to beseech, see note on 1 Thessalonians 4:1; 1 Thessalonians 5:12. υπερ — Huper originally meant over, in behalf of, instead of, but here it is used like περι — peri around, concerning as in 2 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Thessalonians 3:2; 1 Thessalonians 5:10, common in the papyri (Robertson, Grammar, p. 632). For the distinction between Παρουσια Επιπανεια — ParousiaΑποκαλυπσις — Epiphaneia (Epiphany), and Παρουσια — Apokalupsis (Revelation) as applied to the Second Coming of Christ see Milligan on Thessalonian Epistles, pp. 145-151, in the light of the papyri. επιπανεια — Parousia lays emphasis on the presence of the Lord with his people, αποκαλυπσις — epiphaneia on his manifestation of the power and love of God, και ημων επισυναγωγης επ αυτον — apokalupsis on the revelation of God‘s purpose and plan in the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus.


And our gathering together unto him (kai hēmōn episunagōgēs ep' auton). A late word found only in 2 Maccabees. 2:7; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Hebrews 10:25 till Deissmann (Light from the Ancient East, p. 103) found it on a stele in the island of Syme, off Caria, meaning “collection.” Paul is referring to the rapture, mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, and the being forever with the Lord thereafter. Cf. also Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27.

Verse 3
Let no man beguile you in any wise (μη τις υμας εχαπατησηι κατα μηδενα τροπον — mē tis humas exapatēsēi kata mēdena tropon). First aorist active subjunctive of εχαπαταω — exapataō (old verb to deceive, strengthened form of simple verb απαταω — apataō) with double negative (μη τισ μηδενα — mē tis, mēdena) in accord with regular Greek idiom as in 1 Corinthians 16:11 rather than the aorist imperative which does occur sometimes in the third person as in Mark 13:15 (μη καταβατω — mē katabatō). Paul broadens the warning to go beyond conversation and letter. He includes “tricks” of any kind. It is amazing how gullible some of the saints are when a new deceiver pulls off some stunts in religion.

For it will not be (οτι — hoti). There is an ellipse here of ουκ εσται — ouk estai (or γενησεται — genēsetai) to be supplied after οτι — hoti Westcott and Hort make an anacoluthon at the end of 2 Thessalonians 2:4. The meaning is clear. οτι — Hoti is causal, because, but the verb is understood. The second coming not only is not “imminent,” but will not take place before certain important things take place, a definite rebuff to the false enthusiasts of 2 Thessalonians 2:2.

He explicitly identifies vs 1 with the 2nd coming Rapture.

And he explicitly points out that the error he is trying to prevent is solved by stating that the 2nd coming rapture does not happen UNTIL the list of events given in 2Thess 2 take place.

On these two points he is in agreement with the other commentaries that I quoted.

in Christ,

Bob

 

1Th 4:14-17 (EMTV English Majority Text Version)
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, thus also God will bring with Him those who die in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall by no means precede those who are dead.
16 Because the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
--Note the scene here. In verse 16 Christ descends from heaven; the dead in Christ rise first; those alive at this time are caught UP together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
This is the rapture. There is a rapture. It happens before the Tribulation. Jesus comes in the clouds but does not come right to the earth. The believers only rise to meet him in the air.

Contrast to His Second Coming:
Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
--Unlike the rapture, just over 1000 years later, he will come in judgment. He will come in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Between the two comings two things will happen:
1. is the Tribulation, for the Word tells us: "God has not appointed us to wrath.
2. The Millennial Kingdom: Christ's 1000 year of reign on this earth.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
--Who is reigning with Jesus for a thousand years. It is those who came through the Great Tribulation that did not take the mark of the beast or worship him. Those are the Jews. They are the ones mentioned in Revelation 7, sealed by God, and others that may have turned to Christ at that time.
They came out of the Tribulation on the earth, and are entering into a Kingdom on earth, not a new earth, but one that will have the curse lifted by Christ.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
--The believers were raptured before the Tribulation. They will not go through the tribulation. They shall reign with hm a thousand years after the tribulation. All of them.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
--There is one more uprising that will happen after the thousand years when Satan shall be let loose. This will demonstrate the natural depravity of men. Some will enter the Millennial Kingdom that will not be saved and children will be born to them and they will reproduce. Not all will be saved. This shows the natural depravity of the heart of man even in the presence of the Lord and in a perfect world where there is no curse. Satan will lead one final war against Christ, and will immediately be put down.

Then in verses 10-15 is the Second resurrection, and the last Judgment or the Great White Throne Judgment--the Judgment of all the unsaved of all ages.

Every aspect of this timeline can be bolstered with dozens of Scripture.
I have only briefly stated it.

 

the Church was NEVER commanded to wait and look for the coming Antichrist, but WAS told to look for coming of jesus, so the Church from its start was expected immency in return of Christ!

And remember, ALL that John and paul described on Antichrist/beast etc still future to us even today!

 

Hard to see this being fulfilled, IF the sequence is Jesus comes back, we get glorified then come right to earth, as he still has the marriage supper of the lamb to consumate with us then!

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”


Jude 1:14-15 NKJV

 

"In the text" the church is told that certain events would happen before the Coming of Christ "AND our gathering together to HIM".

Paul says HE is reminding the church of these "details" so that they will not be mislead by the pranks of man that would claim "oops! the rapture happened last week and you missed it. Too bad for you".

Robertson appears to get that point.

AND it is IN the text.

===========================

2 Thess 2 and comments -



1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

--In this verse the coming of the Lord "and our gathering together with him" is the rapture. ---

2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.


3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

============================

It is the "English" that is tripping you up as well as the Greek.

The subject is the rapture.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,


The problem to be avoided - is the wild claim that "oops! you missed it" coming to them by false teachers or a fake letter.

2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

Obviously Paul is equating "the day of Christ" with his "subject" which He call "The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him"


Solution: Take note of the events that must come FIRST - the solution stops all from being deceived in any way --

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed


Conclusion No one would then believe a lying report that "the rapture has come last week and you missed it".


pre-trib rapture does not survive "the details in the text".

Pre-trib rapture has no "solution" for the problem that they are trying to avoid which is the "oops! you missed the rapture it was last week" deception.

Pre-trib rapture promoters are left uselessly talking about events AFTER the rapture -as if THIS would stop someone from being fooled in a "OOPS! the rapture was last week and you missed it" scenario.



in Christ,

Bob

 

Here it is again in Rev 20

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Rev 20:6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


1Thess 4
16 Because the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

2 Thess 2

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

--In this verse the coming of the Lord "and our gathering together with him" is the rapture. ---

2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


Matt 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

an even more pointed reading ---

Matt 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

2Thess 2
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,


1 Thess 4
16 Because the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a SHOUT, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Read it.

Tell your friends.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Here is your first mistake. It is reading comprehension.
Verse four describes the believers of the first resurrection. Only believers are resurrected, and all of them before the thousand years--pre-mill.

Read verse 5 like this. "This is the first resurrection. BUT the rest of the dead did not live again (second resurrection) until the thousand years were finished."
The first part of verse five is written for our clarity to make things clear that the unsaved are not part of that first resurrection that takes place before the thousand years.

The believers are raised before the millennial Kingdom, in fact before the tribulation. The second death has no power on them (verses 10-15)

These are believers who have died. These believers, along with believers who are living when Christ comes in the clouds will be raptured before the Tribulation ever begins.

 

Consider carefully:
1. Indonesia is the largest Islamic nation in the world. If you were a Muslim with some knowledge of the Bible (and many of them do have a knowledge), what would your thoughts be if you turned them to the Bible? What color would the sun and moon be in these pictures?

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inpictures/2014/01/indonesia-volcano-erupts-2014152406710944.html

Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

2. Forget the Middle Ages. It is but a drop in the bucket compared to what is happening today. Entire "Christian nations" are disappearing. Persecution is horrendous:

http://www.worthynews.com/top/freeb...could-cease-to-exist-if-civil-war-continues-/

The same is true in Nigeria:

http://www.worthynews.com/12736-archbishop-genocide-of-christians-in-nigeria


In South Sudan the same thing is happening.



In Pakistan, as a result of the Blasphemy Law, Christians are fleeing to different nations. They are being accused without witnesses of insulting the name of Mohammed and therefore can face a sentence of life imprisonment or death. The exodus of Christians continues. So does the persecution.



In Kazakhstan propagating the gospel is illegal.

http://www.worthynews.com/12738-charges-dropped-but-pastor-remains-in-prison


Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.



Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.



But this is not the Great Tribulation. It is simply a "forerunner" of what is to come. His Coming, that is the rapture, is just around the corner. He is coming soon.

 

ALL of that points and refers to His second coming to the earth, to reign!

There are indeed signs before that happens, but NONE as to when Rapture of His Body happens, that could be anytime now!

 

<<Explicitly>>?!

Not even IMPLICITLY!

This is lower grades language class stuff.

You cannot read, Bob Ryan.

<<Paul is referring to the rapture,>>

Where is this <<rapture>> referred to?

“By / concerning the coming [to us on earth] of our Lord Jesus Christ and of our crowning go-to-Church together verily with Him … that ye be not shaken in mind” with stuff like <<the rapture>>, DUH!

Christ’ COMING is referred to as a coming to stay and ASSEMBLE TOGETHER MORE CLOSELY than ever——NO DEPARTING AGAIN FROM US of Christ, or of some <<raptured>> AWAY from the earth leaving behind not as many as two or three who worship God in spirit and in truth ….

Nonsense!

PS

And then the passage speaks of "the PRESENCE of the Lord" while you suppose his going away and leaving us behind on our own!!

No, it's just too much for me, thanks but no thanks!

 

The rapture is first stated in John 14:1-4 "I will come again and receive you to Myself" -- if you want to call it some other word - feel free. It happens at the second coming -- or if you prefer "when He comes again". (Second coming also not in the Bible but "Comes again" is)

No need to be ugly about it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Dear Bob Ryan, what is <ugly> is you, claiming <<The rapture is first stated in John 14:1-4 "I will come again and receive you to Myself">>

<<the rapture>> IS NOT STATED! You say it is stated; what stands written though, states Jesus will come again and will receive his own to Himself. He comes to, and comes and STAY WITH, US, having "received us to Himself" : RIGHT WHERE HE - AFTER HE WILL HAVE COME - WILL BE; and that is right the place where He will have come BACK to and will have “received” us, “to” Him.

It is nohow <stated> He will go away again.

I am not the one who calls Jesus' word or words, "I will come again and receive you to Myself", <<some other word>> : YOU do. You call it a <rapture>, and you suppose it a going away again instead of a coming back.

 

Our theologies differ GE, but on this I agree. Bob is the first one I know ever to use John 14 to refer to the rapture.

 

Well make me the 2nd.

Jn 14:2-3
2 In my Father's house are many mansions:if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

You dont have to be an SDA cultist to see that Jesus is referring to His ascension and second coming here.
I Go...where?...my father's house.
I will come again...second coming.

 

I agree.

But I also have another understanding, which actually is my first 'choice' if I may so call it.

I believe, namely, that Jesus is here <referring> to his death and resurrection.

... so, what say you ...

In the meantime I'll be listening Scriabin .... my replies are formed in my mind already.

 

"There ye may be also" indicates "not here". In His resurrection, he came to them, but didn't take them "there".

 

"We declare unto you the glad tidings how that the promise which was made to the fathers God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children IN THAT HE HATH RAISED UP JESUS AGAIN ... and as concerning that He raised Him up from the dead NO MORE / NOT AGAIN to return to corruption."

Whatever that means it cannot ever mean <<<he came to them, but didn't take them "there">>> "WHERE I AM".

So here is the explanation and proof Jesus when He rose from the dead, did bring the disciples to where He was, to namely the forever risen from the dead state to which none of His who are "IN HIM" could return to corruption or to some state where they have lost their eternal, salvation.

Here is that proof,

"You, CO-buried together WITH Him IN Him in HIS baptism (of his death)* forgiving us (them) all their trespasses He CO-RAISED TOGETHER IN HIM / WITH HIM**."
[* en hohi suntaphentes autohi en tohi baptismati en hohi kai sunehgerthehte dia tehs .... energeias tou Theou tou egeirantos auton ek nekrohn]
[** SUN-edzoohepoiehsen humas SUN AUTOHI ]

“If then YE be risen WITH Christ …. ye are dead and your life is hid WITH Christ IN God.”
“In the dispensation of the fullness of times God might GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE ALL IN CHRIST both which are in heaven and which are on earth IN HIM IN WHOM also we have obtained inheritance.”
“Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners but FELLOW CITIZENS with the saints—indeed ye are of the HOUSE of God” which Jesus promised to “GO AND PREPARE for you”—, “that Good Shepherd whom the God of Peace BROUGHT AGAIN from the dead, our Lord Jesus.”

 

To be "proof", the quote from Jesus would have to be referenced by Paul, Peter, etc., in the Epistles.

Since it is not, then the text is to be taken literally, at face value.
Unless otherwise shown.

I am not discounting the Gospel as the preparation for man's eternal position, with Christ.

Jn 14:3
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

1Th 4:17-18
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


But here is the wording correlated ,in the literal interpretation.

 

Job 14:12
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.


Mat 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

2Pe 3:10-11
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

So Peter agrees with Job and Jesus.

All Saints of all the ages, will rise at the same time..."after the tribulation".